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Old 11th Oct 2018, 1:39 pm   #21
ms660
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Who owns what and will it matter.....It reminds me of trying to find who the mineral rights owner is of a spread you might have in your possession....Park a vehicle on the land with a sign saying The Acme Expensive Minerals Exploration Co. then walk around the said land with a hard hat on, clipboard in one hand and map in t'other, and see who turns up and if they care...

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Old 11th Oct 2018, 2:03 pm   #22
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

For nearly a century the US was out of step with most of the rest of the world in that it did not sign up to the 1909 Berne Convention on copyright (which provides that no registration is necessary to get copyright). The US did eventually sign up with effect from 1st March 1989, but for works published before that date it was necessary to file a copy with the US Library of Congress to get copyright protection. Presumably many journals published outside the US wouldn't have bothered with the expense of the US registration formalities, with the consequence that they are not protected by copyright in the US,(although they are protected in other countries). The US also used to have onerous marking requirements in that a work had to be marked with a statement that it was protected by copyright (marking with a C in a circle satisfied this); the date of first publication; and the owner of the copyright. Unless this was done, copyright was difficult to enforce in the US, even if it had been registered. Thus many of the older journals and other publications that are available on US web sites, could well be free of copyright in the US, even if they are still in copyright in other countries.

The attitude of the former GEC and Marconi was that they were happy for anyone to make use of their copyrighted works as long as an acknowledgement of the source was given ( I was in the room next to their publicity officer for a couple of years and he told me that this was company policy).

One thing I have observed is what seems to be a belief that, just because you own a copy of something, you also own the copyright in it. There are many examples of images on web sites for which copyright ownership is asserted, that are clearly out of copyright. I have even come across this with organisations such as the National Railway Museum, where a book contains reproductions of a 200-year-old newspaper cutting, an a poster dating from the mid-1800's, and photographs taken in the mid-Victorian era, that are stated to be copyright of the NRM or Crown copyright in the list of acknowledgements of the picture sources, but for which any copyright that may have existed has long expired, or which are clearly not Crown Copyright. Copyright is complex, and the goalposts keep changing, especially due to EC directives forcing changes to the UK copyright acts, but one thing which I think is still in force is the requirement for transfer of copyright to be executed in writing in order for it to be valid, and I doubt that few could produce the necessary trail of documents from the original owner if they wished to take enforcement action in the courts.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 2:40 pm   #23
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

I agree with Richard.
But I did not intend this discussion to concentrate on copyright, nor the rights and wrongs of selling ones own hard work (which is a very legitimate thing to do and is a service to the community)

My intention was to bring to your attention and invite discussion on the moral aspects of taking someone's else's hard work, provided to the community for free, and selling it for profit to line ones own pocket.
The site in question has I believe removed the service manuals complained about.

I have also noticed a Dutch vintage radio site, nvhr.nl, redistributing schematics after removing the existing watermarks and adding their own identification stamp, making it appear that they did the work of producing the schematic. But at least the Dutch site was not charging for the schematics.

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Old 11th Oct 2018, 2:57 pm   #24
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

The American Radio History website stopped archiving Wireless World when, after first changing its name to 'Electronics World & Wireless World', it dropped the words Wireless World entirely. They do however have a copy of the later April 2013 centenary issue and I was just browsing through the reprint of Arthur C Clarke's October 1945 article on geostationary satellites and the December 1975 article on current dumping amplifiers and found the quality, particularly of the latter, appalling in places whereas the archived copy of the both issues on ARH are in virtually pristine condition!
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 3:43 pm   #25
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Quote:
Originally Posted by trh01uk View Post
Trouble is, that the practice is widespread in this hobby - and probably in most other branches of collecting too. I refer to the practice of buying cheap (can't get cheaper than free!) - often from a naive seller - and then selling the item on at some other market place - online auctions being an example. I see no way of stamping out such practices, though if I know that is what has happened then I refuse to take any part [...]
Hopefully, then, you've never worked for a company seeking to make a profit (buying at one price and selling at another), invested in any such company, or taken a pension where the scheme has invested in such a company.

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Old 11th Oct 2018, 4:11 pm   #26
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

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Originally Posted by YoungManGW View Post
Hopefully, then, you've never worked for a company seeking to make a profit (buying at one price and selling at another), invested in any such company, or taken a pension where the scheme has invested in such a company.
Hmm, yes: I do recall working at a company where a certain specialised component was bought in from the factory next door, re-labelled as our own with a different type number, then sold at £70 rather than the £15 it had cost. And, yes, it seemed like sharp practice at the time.

I can't say I mind what anyone does with the various scans etc. I've uploaded over the years. If they manage to sell them, it's presumably to someone who (a) wanted them for something, and (b) didn't know of anywhere they could get them for free, so a service of sorts has been performed in getting them to the customer at all: and the essence of any sort of trading activity is to buy at low prices and sell at higher, and zero cost is as cheap as things come.

I've cursed my luck once or twice when, say, a radio I'd have liked to buy and welcome into the fold here has sold for £50 before I saw it and been immediately re-offered for £250. To me, though, life's far too short to bother cursing the trader too, and I expect I would have gone ahead and paid the £250 if the radio would have been worth that much to me to start with. So far, admittedly, it hasn't.

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Old 11th Oct 2018, 5:37 pm   #27
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

I have put the service manual for an old bit of photometric kit of the 1950's on the web, some bloke contacted me complaining that he had the copyright as he found "the originals" in a skip. Mine are hand typed too, another original?
At least I don't charge and can't be accused of profiting from them.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 6:36 pm   #28
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

I'm going back more than 20 years. I obtained am AVO Signal Generator Manual and a Thorn TX9 TV manual. I've probably still got them somewhere. They were both excellent and I was content with what they cost, but nowadays, depending on what your interest are, internet is awash with free stuff from the likes of DKMODs, Elektrotanya, Boatnachors and of course between Forum members themselves.

Most of my vintage radio needs are met from Paul's disc, the second edition of which Paul is working on.

On matters of copyright, basically, for the stuff we're interested in, it's a free for all and virtually ungovernable.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 6:38 pm   #29
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Finding the originals in a skip does not result in transfer of copyright from the author. Transfer must be in writing. If you found (or bought, as some collectors do) the manuscript of a book, all you own is the physical copy of the work. In the absence of specific permission, you are not entitled to make copies , as ownership of the copyright in the work would remain with the author.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 7:33 pm   #30
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungManGW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by trh01uk View Post
Trouble is, that the practice is widespread in this hobby - and probably in most other branches of collecting too. I refer to the practice of buying cheap (can't get cheaper than free!) - often from a naive seller - and then selling the item on at some other market place - online auctions being an example. I see no way of stamping out such practices, though if I know that is what has happened then I refuse to take any part [...]
Hopefully, then, you've never worked for a company seeking to make a profit (buying at one price and selling at another), invested in any such company, or taken a pension where the scheme has invested in such a company.

Regards,
Richard
Richard

No - I hope I never have. I find the practice morally repugnant, and do not wish to profit in any way from swindling someone else. And swindling is exactly what it is.

Richard
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 7:59 pm   #31
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

We often get requests via www.beocentral.com to provide service data for some set or another. The answer is always no, since we don't own the copyright to any of them. This brings to mind a question in 'Private Eye' a few years ago:

Reader: Will Private Eye be making more of their content available on the internet any time soon?
Editor: No. Go and buy the mag.

I thoroughly agree!
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 8:21 pm   #32
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

I think the discussion here on copyright is not only off topic - its also a red herring. Websites that offer free copies are really no different to a public library. You go in and you can read the material they have on the shelves - or in the case of a website on the server's hard disk.

Its what the reader does with the document that infringes any copyright that may or may not exist. The mere downloading of a copy is no worse than taking a library book home. No copyright is actually infringed. And indeed further copies of such material are entirely legitimate "for study purposes". I've done that loads of time at my local library with the full blessing of the library staff.

Where a problem arises is where the receiver of such material then chooses to try and make money out of it by selling copies. I think that is the point at where copyright is truly infringed and the owner's of copyright have every right to make a complaint and take legal action if they wish.

When I first obtained copies of Clansman radio EMERs from the UK government - free of charge by the way under the Freedom of Information Act - they were at pains to tell me that the previously restricted status of these documents had been lifted. But at the same time I had to observe copyright and allow the material to be used for "study purposes". And any attempt to sell the material would result in legal action. So I have freely given away copies of this material to anyone who asked - who also provided me with a written (email) statement that they would only use the material for personal study.

I've never had a problem with this approach - and I intend to go on doing just that.

Richard
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 9:07 pm   #33
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

A few years back I converted all my copies of Pye telecom "in house" (Telecommunications, Dublin) test gear to pdf, often enlarged, sometimes with my own notes added. The paper originals I still have. My reason was so I could maybe help the occasional enthusiast by providing a copy if needed as some of this data is difficult to find. Another reason being to maybe just give back a little to all the members whose posts I so much enjoy.
Requests for information have happened occasionally. Only yesterday, being the MM1 modulation meter copy going to a UKVRR member in Netherlands. With my compliments. I received a very nice reply thanking me for it. The text within the warm thank you reply that I received more than made up for the entire value that I could ever place on the pdf.
It is most unlikely any one person would acquire all my pdf copies anyway, so as to be able to offer on line at a premium. I am in control of each individual copy I send to whichever person requests it, so It is very unlikely any would ever be offered for sale, as they are genuine forum members and it is against the ethos of this forum - and they all respect that. If any appeared on auction or whatever, it would be annoying to myself, yes. But, as I am not the original copyright holder anyway, totally beyond my control.
These days it is all too easy for people to make a "fast buck" on original printed matter. Just search the usual auction for BC221 handbook and it is often for sale as a copy. Asking about 1/3 the price of what the actual instrument sells for at radio rallies!
Rob
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 8:39 am   #34
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

I view this issue with a pragmatic eye. While my Google-fu is usually strong and I can root out online copies of manuals/schematics, sometimes I'm just not in the mood/don't have the inclination, and then spending a fiver on a printed copy that arrives the next day is - in my estimation - a good investment.

Moreso if my printer's out of ink or playing up in some way.

As to intellectual-property issues: the issue is usually about whether significant effort has been made in adapting/reworking the original. Scanning a document - I wouldn't say that means your electronic copy contains significant IP of your own, but if you scan it *then* put time/effort into reworking it to make it significantly more-readable you may hav an IP claim.

I'm reminded of the way that music publishers were able to claim copyright on their sheet-music even when the composer of the work was centuries-dead. They weren't claiming copyright on the arrangement-of-the-notes-in-the-music itself, they were claiming copyright on their effort involved in the layout/typesetting.
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 10:40 am   #35
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

That's correct, the copyright in the typographical arrangement of a published edition lasts 25 years from the end of the year of its publication.
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 1:04 pm   #36
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

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That's correct, the copyright in the typographical arrangement of a published edition lasts 25 years from the end of the year of its publication.
Where did you get that information from?

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Old 12th Oct 2018, 3:55 pm   #37
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, section 15.

"Copyright in the typographical arrangement of a published edition expires at the end of the period of 25 years from the end of the calendar year in which the edition was published."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/15

My understanding is that this only gives protection to the typography. It does not give any protection to the words of the text of the work which, if out of copyright, you would be free to transcribe.

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Old 12th Oct 2018, 5:24 pm   #38
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

The term ‘Typographical Arrangement’ is ambiguous - it refers only to the style, layout, composition and general appearance of a published work. Hence, if, say, a service manual is scanned and put into the public domain (be it free of charge or for financial gain) without the copyright owners permission and agreement during the period in which Copyright still exits, then it’s breach of copyright.

Duration of Copyright:

Printed works:

The term of author's copyright under the Copyright Act 1842 (which protected only printed works) was 42 years from the publication of the work, or the lifetime of the author and 7 years thereafter, whichever was the longer. In the 1911 Act the term of author's copyright was extended to the lifetime of the author and 50 years thereafter; this remained the case under the 1956 Act and the 1988 Act.

Under the 1995 Regulations, the period of author's copyright was further extended, to the lifetime of the author and 70 years thereafter. Those regulations were retrospective: they extended the copyright period for all works which were then still in copyright, and (controversially) revived the lapsed copyright of all authors who had died in the previous 70 years, i.e. since 1925.

Accordingly, copyright in literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works currently expires 70 years from the end of the calendar year of the author's death. Where the work has more than one author, the copyright expires 70 years after the death of the last survivor of them.

The publisher's (separate) copyright, in the typographical arrangement of a printed work, lasts for 25 years from the end of the year in which publication occurred. This protects a publisher's copyright in all printed works: including books, magazines, newspapers, and other periodicals.

International copyright:

This has a bearing on the placement of UK magazines on the American History website:

Notwithstanding that a work qualifies for copyright protection in the UK, it will not be automatically entitled to the normal period of copyright (as set out above). It may be entitled to only a shorter period of protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyri...United_Kingdom

The UK Copyright Act extends to more than 240 pages:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...9880048_en.pdf

Nothing will change - whether or not some service data is still copyright, internet is awash with copyright material of all types. As to stuff that's of interest to us, people will widely circulate it on internet and on websites either altruistically like AmericanHistory, or for financial gain. The original copyright owners have little interest in it, nothing to gain from restricting circulation and are not making a financial loss. If people object to anyone scanning material and selling it either as a download or on a DVD, the answer is simple - go without and don't buy it or try to get it elsewhere for free.
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 5:50 pm   #39
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Like Crackle I make my info free.

I spent a lot of time to do what I have done just has Mike has.

I really feel sorry for the people have paid for what is available for free.

Like Mike I never promote my service above Paul's his is still a really good deal.

Unfortunately freeloading is part of the internet generation.

I have done my web site as much for myself as others.

Cheers

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Old 13th Oct 2018, 1:22 am   #40
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Default Re: Unfair use of service manuals

Hi!

Quote:
I know the company you are referring to - or at least I know their products, sold on various CDs for many years. I have to disagree with you that these are "high quality copies". These are the cheapest possible scans, in fact automated scans, where everything is black and white, even when images demand at least greyscale, and sometimes colour. And often the resolution is so poor that critical detail is lost from things like schematics.

These copies are a prime example of what motivated me to start doing the job properly back in 2002 for the vmars archive. I worked out how to get high resolution scans, while keeping the file size moderate - back in those days before the advent of fast internet, the file size was pretty important. And the repeated stamping of the company name all over the copy makes the product anything but "high quality"!

To emphasise the commercial motivation behind this production, the huge range of equipments claimed to be on some CDs, is also a con - usually there is one manual, which is then claimed to cover a myriad of variants and similar models - all separately listed of course - to impress the customers. I have complained about this directly to the company concerned in the past, having spent money to get a manual claimed to be on a CD, only to find that it wasn't.

To my mind these copies are the last resort of the desperate. Of course, in some cases its the only copy of manual available anywhere - so they can claim to be providing some sort of service. But lets be clear that its pretty second rate by the standards set in the last 15 years - and much of the material is not only free now, it has been offered free since the day it came off the scanner.
I'm entirely in agreement!

Tha quality of their manuals varies from dubious to absolutely appalling, and it got to the point where said firm refused to take any orders from me, because I sent back parcels of paper that looked like spiders had been dipped in toner and left to scuttle all over the paper, along with a not-pleased letter explaining why I couldn't read it!

I don't want to pay a lot of money for a diagram that has to be redrawn all over again from scratch!

I wanted a Service Manual for a Ferguson 3922 Music Centre a year or two ago, and found it on a site whose main features are a very dark green background - the manual was almost £20 but what arrived was a high quality scan of Thorn/BRC's original work with all the small component values all clearly readable, no furry lettering anywhere and the "see-through" views of PCBs all really well done with all the tracks a consistent shade of light grey!

Some of BRC's earlier 1970s audio manuals were sometimes done in two colours - I've not bought any copies of these but I once had a few where the PCB tracks were a lightly stippled use of the second colour used on the manual - I've seen yellow, orange, emerald-green, light blue, purple and red over the years!

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