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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 13th Apr 2023, 10:37 pm   #1
PhilChamberlain
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Default Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

Hi all, I've been struggling to get my Elizabethan LZ 29 to work, Motor is turned when there is no tape in but not when there is, it was driving me mad, until I realised two things 1. pinchroller wasn't going round, and 2. the motors on the spools were turning in opposite directions!!! I am guessing something has been put in or wired up back to front, but not entirely sure where to go from here, has anybody seen this or know what to do about it? Thanks very much everyone
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Old 13th Apr 2023, 11:02 pm   #2
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way

The spooling motors will turn in opposite directions - the right hand anti-clockwise for take up and the left clockwise to provide back tension.

It isn't entirely clear what you mean about the pinch roller not rotating - it does not provide drive, the capstan does, and this is driven by idler from the capstan motor. There may be a problem with the drive idler - shiny rubber or stiff grease - and that is where I'd look first, after ensuring the capstan motor itself is turning.
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Old 14th Apr 2023, 9:56 am   #3
PhilChamberlain
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way

Thanks so much Ted, much appreciate you taking the trouble to reply. I guess you can tell. I am a bit of a novice, that makes sense. I have downloaded the service data PDFs for the Elizabethan and the Collaro, so I'll see what I can tell me about, making sure the capstan is doing its job, thanks again
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Old 14th Apr 2023, 10:46 am   #4
barrymagrec
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way

The LZ 29 uses the Collaro Studio deck. Make sure the speed change switch is in a valid position and not stuck between speeds.
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Old 14th Apr 2023, 10:53 am   #5
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way

What happens when an old tape is inserted? Obviously don't use cherished recording.
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Old 14th Apr 2023, 7:31 pm   #6
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way

When it's running, the capstan will provide the drive to the tape as it is 'pinched' between the capstan and the aptly named pinch roller, which is enrubbered to ensure grip. The takeoff reel won't actually rotate backwards during playback, but the tension applied to the reel by the motor 'trying' to rotate backwards provides the back tension Ted mentioned.
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Old 16th Apr 2023, 6:12 pm   #7
PhilChamberlain
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Default Re: Motor turns the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymagrec View Post
The LZ 29 uses the Collaro Studio deck. Make sure the speed change switch is in a valid position and not stuck between speeds.
Thanks Barry, It wasn't between positions but in checking and trying out different speeds I have now established that it only works on 7 1/2 IPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bulgaria View Post
When it's running, the capstan will provide the drive to the tape as it is 'pinched' between the capstan and the aptly named pinch roller, which is enrubbered to ensure grip. The takeoff reel won't actually rotate backwards during playback, but the tension applied to the reel by the motor 'trying' to rotate backwards provides the back tension Ted mentioned.
Got it, thanks Uncle
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 11:24 am   #8
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

The Collaro deck is pretty robust and uses three motors, so drive belts aren't a problem.

What can be a problem, though not a serious one, is dried up grease on the moving levers. Check eveything moves freely, especially the speed change linkage and relubricate as necessary. That should get your three speeds working.
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 2:45 pm   #9
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

I'm currently restoring an Elizabethan Major which uses the same Collaro Studio tape deck.
On mine, the pinch roller and idler wheel was missing, so obtained replacements from another deck (Thanks Graham).
On that deck, the capstan motor is mounted on rubber shock mounts, which on mine were completely degraded and had turned to sticky dust. The speed change is done by the idler wheel being moved up or down to contact a stepped pulley on the capstan motor, and the mounts having degraded meant the motor had dropped, so the idler wheel was no longer contacting the right pulley diameter. That would make it difficult to change speed.
You might want to examine the rubber motor mounts and make sure they're still supporting the motor properly.
Stiff grease has already been mentioned, I cleaned the brown stuff off all the mechanism and replaced it with white Lithium grease.

It's a nice deck. What I found surprising is that such a decent mechanism should be fitted with very so-so heads and frankly poor electronics. On my unit, they made some surprising decisions, like having an expensive moving-coil record-level meter, with 1-6 PPM indication, but only a half-wave rectifier,!

On the donor machine I used, there was even just a simple magic-eye level indicator, and extremely basic electronics, and even worse heads, even though they used the decent and presumably expensive Collaro deck.

S.
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 4:27 pm   #10
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

Looking back at early copies of 'Tape Recorder' magazine dating from the early Sixties, some DIY kits (e.g. Heathkit) were offered with a range of decks suitable for their electronics. I was surprised how cheap the Collaro was, being not a great deal more than the far inferior BSR.

The 'piano key' design, three speeds and 7" reels of the Collaro meant these features coud be used as selling points for the smaller manufacturer while the electronics and heads could be very ordinary.
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 5:53 pm   #11
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

Reps pushed the Studio design as far as they could for the R10, making modifications such as re-machining the capstan, fitting a polyurethane idler and fitting Bogen heads. This resulted in an excellent machine for the price of around 65gns, at a time when the Ferrograph was nearly twice as much.

Incidentally, the actual audio performance of the BSR decks was remarkably good for the price. True, they felt clunky and crude, and the TD2 was single speed and restricted in spool capacity, but the critical machining was well done and the simplicity of the design made for reliability. They were good enough to sweep the likes of Walter from the market in short order after launch.

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 20th Apr 2023 at 6:00 pm.
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 6:18 pm   #12
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

I went for a job with Tom Reps circa 1973 when he was Chilton but we didn`t seem to hit it off.
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Old 24th Apr 2023, 10:52 pm   #13
PhilChamberlain
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Smile Re: Elizabethan LZ29. Motor turns the wrong way.

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all your comments advice and info. I downloaded the service and user manual 'from the top' (took me ages to work that one out).

So, I removed the capstan motor but couldn't see what else to do with it or how to get into it to degrease.

I then half dropped it and caught it on the PCB which instantly snapped being old and brittle, so have put it away until I have calmed down and am ready to try again somehow. I am so annoyed with myself I feel cursed. It was a really good clean hardly used machine with case candy and a microphone i was really excited to get going.

Having not learned my lesson I have now bought a Revox G-36 so expect more novice questions and mishaps at a forum near you shortly.
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