Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

MrCurvedLimos · 27th Feb 2017, 9:09 pm

Hi, I'm new here. I've been collecting radios for about 5 years. I have amassed a group of mostly American late-1930s radios that will take much longer to restore than it has taken to acquire. I'm pretty slow at restoration. My dad taught me to solder when I was about 8, my degree is electrical engineering, and most of my 25-year career has been software development. I'm a novice at radio restoration. I'm more comfortable doing electrical work than cabinets, but I am far from an expert in either.

Yesterday, I bought an approx. 1932 3-tube Pye radio-phonograph console here in Seattle, that I'm trying to find more information about, particularly a schematic. Also, if anyone knows where a model designator might be found on this style Pye radio, I'd like to know that, too. It has some original labels, but nothing that looked like a model number.

Looking at RadioMuseum.org, it seems like this may be an AC-DC version of a Pye Model G, but I don't really know. The tubes are AC/S1VM, DC3/HL, and DC2/Pen.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/pye_g.html

It has a Garrard electric phonograph in the top. The switch under the dial has 3 settings, MED - GRAM - LONG. Cabinet dimensions (WHD) are 21.5 x 39 x 16 inches. On/Off switch is on the right side of the cabinet (visible near top-left of back photo). Power supply seems to largely have been moved off the radio chassis and into the bottom of the console cabinet, with components from Pye and Garrard.

Has anyone ever seen one of these before? Anyone have one?

Thanks!
Rodney

Peter.N. · 27th Feb 2017, 11:22 pm

Very nice that, haven't seen anything like it since I started in the trade in the '50s. It appears to have been made for the UK or export as it has all the mains voltage adjustments.

Hopefully someone will come along who knows it but I have never seen one.

Peter

'LIVEWIRE?' · 27th Feb 2017, 11:32 pm

I can't help with the model Id., , as I've never even seen one of those sets, Rodney, but a couple of general opointers may be helpful (1) The 'MED-GRAM-LONG' switch selects, as you might be aware, the functions, 'MED' being Medium Wave - approximately 550-1500kHz, though the dial will be marked in Metres from approx. 200 to 550. 'GRAM' selects the record player, and 'LONG' is the Long Wave band (1000 to 2000Metres approx =150 to 300kHz), which isn't used by broadcast stations in the Americas
Point (2) - As I'm sure you know the radio is made to run on 240V -if AC this will be @50Hz, although I see that the operating voltage is selectable, so it can be set to 110v, but, if that record deck uses an AC motor it will be designed for 50Hz, and will run at the wrong speed on 60Hz mains. Other forum members may have specific knowledge of this model.

Boater Sam · 28th Feb 2017, 5:00 am

That's a Gerrard resistive dropper in the bottom, had one as a child to run a cine projector, boy do they get hot! Its going to be 50Hz mains. Its easier to speed up a turntable 20% mechanically than slow it down.
I've seen that cabinet before, sunrise, but not with the lid open. Was there not a Pye console radio in a similar cabinet?

TonyDuell · 28th Feb 2017, 7:29 am

I know nothing about this, but...

The turntable motor (in photo 3) seems to have a black plastic cap on the side. This might well be on the end of a carbon brush holder. In other words the motor might be a 'universal' AC/DC type. In which case the mains frequency won't matter. The turntable speed could be controlled by a mechanical governor.

One thing bothers me. I don't see any rectifier for the radio chassis. None of the valves mentioned is a rectifier. Is there a metal rectifier in there somewhere? Or was it made for DC mains only? Such sets did exist.

Boater Sam · 28th Feb 2017, 8:04 am

There seems to be a transformer on the lower left of the chassis, unless it is a very large choke.
DC3/HL I don't know, DC2/PEN is 40v 0.1A heater, but AC/S1VM is 4v 1A heater so unless some of the valves are wrong'uns, its a very odd heater chain!

Cobaltblue · 28th Feb 2017, 8:19 am

It looks like a Model G/RG/DC

The Manufacturers service sheet can be obtained here http://www.service-data.com/product....43/6579/m15143

Sam's Right one of those valves doesn't belong.

Cheers

Mike T

Boater Sam · 28th Feb 2017, 9:06 am

Interesting set, preselector, details of conversion to AC, gram motor is adjustable for speed, loads of detail on the manufacturer's sheet, but no valve types as far as I can see!

Looks to be a 0.1A series chain so the output valve is correct, the AC/S1VM is wrong. Can't find the third one DC3/HL but seems to be in the same series as the DC2/PEN.

Ah, DC/HL & DC3/HL, its in the Radiomuseum list, 0.1A heater, so thats the correct valve.

The AC/S1VM is out of the AC version. Someone had their wires crossed.

So you will need to find the corresponding 0.1A heater valve to complete the chain. There is a DC2/SGVM so that is probably it. Heaven knows if you will find one.
Or do the conversion to AC mains that is on the sheet?

Boater Sam · 28th Feb 2017, 9:32 am

The pdf at

http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/dc2sgvm.pdf

will help.

MrCurvedLimos · 28th Feb 2017, 7:55 pm

Ah! Thank you very much for your help everyone! It's very good to find a schematic. I will have to work through it and see how well it matches what I have, but hopefully it will be closer than the AC version. I agree that the AC/S1VM seemed like the odd man out with its 1A heater. I'll have to figure that out.

Yes, it is a Garrard resistive dropper. It has settings for both AC and DC, which you can't see in my photo because it's behind that plug. In the configuration it came in my door, you can see one pin in the 220 hole, and on the back side of the plug, the 2nd pin is in the AC hole. It's obviously designed to get very hot... you can see the holes in the bottom of the cabinet for airflow.

The rectifier is on the very bottom right of the cabinet (looking from the rear), not really very visible in my photo, but I'm attaching another photo that shows it. The component on the lower left of the chassis is a choke. That big grey capacitor box that says "Pye 9 MF" on it is a little worrisome, as it has about 10 wires connected to it; hopefully the schematic will clarify what size caps are potted in it.

The Garrard changer seems very well built. I know almost zero about phonographs, but just playing with the tone arm and stop switch/brake on the top side, they move smoothly and the stop switch makes a definitive click when the lever reaches the ends of its travel. I don't see any pot metal problems from just looking around... those are spider webs in the photo, not cracks.

That tone control is a different issue. The knob and shaft were cast as a single piece of metal that reach down into the control body, and when I tried to turn it, it twisted right off in my fingers.

I'll have to see if I can get someone to machine a shaft for me, and then try to replicate a knob for it. Long term project.

Another thing I have to deal with is the wormy wood. The side and front panels all have exit holes from wood boring beetles. No evidence that it's an active infestation (no frass in evidence), but on the side of caution, I'm thinking I should seal the cabinet in a bag and watch it for a year to see if any insects emerge or any new frass shows up.

Cobaltblue · 28th Feb 2017, 10:23 pm

The first picture appears to show that the AC conversion unit has been fitted so that's good news

Cheers

Mike T

MrCurvedLimos · 28th Feb 2017, 10:45 pm

Just reading through the data sheet.

The correct tube lineup is given as DC2/SG VM, DC3/HL, DC2/Pen. You were right Sam!

And I was wrong. It does not have an AC/S1 VM in it. These spray shield Mazda tubes are so hard to read, the only way I succeed is with heavy image processing. I was being lazy, looked at the tube, and thought, "Oh, that looks just like the AC/S1 VM in my other radio," and made the wrong assumption. When I do the image processing, look what results! It's a DC2/SG VM.

The series string for the heaters includes 3 coils also, and it seems the total drop of the string is ~200V. So I'm confused that my unit appears to have some adaptation for 110V. Maybe the string is split in half somehow. I will have to dig into it more, trace some wires around.

crackle · 28th Feb 2017, 10:56 pm

Nice old radiogram.
There are what look like very large worm holes in the board by the rectifiers.

Mike

Boater Sam · 1st Mar 2017, 2:43 am

The worm is a minor problem, any good woodworm treatment followed by bagging it up for a month or so will ensure that nothing lives. Formaldehyde is great if you can get any.
Once the cabinet is properly dry, the worm gives up anyway, it only breeds in damp cold wood, once the mature beetles have left, if the conditions are dry, they will not reinfest.
If you can buy real naphtha mothballs, they work too.

MrCurvedLimos · 8th Mar 2017, 9:23 pm

Question about model years of British radios around this time. Did they match the calendar year, or were new models introduced in the 2nd half of the previous year for the Christmas season, or neither?

The manufacturer's service sheet for the G/RG/DC was issued Feb. 28, 1933. What model year would this radio be, as a result?

27th Feb 2017, 9:09 pm	#1
MrCurvedLimos Diode Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA. Posts: 4	Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Hi, I'm new here. I've been collecting radios for about 5 years. I have amassed a group of mostly American late-1930s radios that will take much longer to restore than it has taken to acquire. I'm pretty slow at restoration. My dad taught me to solder when I was about 8, my degree is electrical engineering, and most of my 25-year career has been software development. I'm a novice at radio restoration. I'm more comfortable doing electrical work than cabinets, but I am far from an expert in either. Yesterday, I bought an approx. 1932 3-tube Pye radio-phonograph console here in Seattle, that I'm trying to find more information about, particularly a schematic. Also, if anyone knows where a model designator might be found on this style Pye radio, I'd like to know that, too. It has some original labels, but nothing that looked like a model number. Looking at RadioMuseum.org, it seems like this may be an AC-DC version of a Pye Model G, but I don't really know. The tubes are AC/S1VM, DC3/HL, and DC2/Pen. http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/pye_g.html It has a Garrard electric phonograph in the top. The switch under the dial has 3 settings, MED - GRAM - LONG. Cabinet dimensions (WHD) are 21.5 x 39 x 16 inches. On/Off switch is on the right side of the cabinet (visible near top-left of back photo). Power supply seems to largely have been moved off the radio chassis and into the bottom of the console cabinet, with components from Pye and Garrard. Has anyone ever seen one of these before? Anyone have one? Thanks! Rodney Attached Thumbnails

27th Feb 2017, 11:22 pm	#2
Peter.N. Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Charmouth, Dorset, UK. Posts: 3,601	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Very nice that, haven't seen anything like it since I started in the trade in the '50s. It appears to have been made for the UK or export as it has all the mains voltage adjustments. Hopefully someone will come along who knows it but I have never seen one. Peter

27th Feb 2017, 11:32 pm	#3
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono I can't help with the model Id., , as I've never even seen one of those sets, Rodney, but a couple of general opointers may be helpful (1) The 'MED-GRAM-LONG' switch selects, as you might be aware, the functions, 'MED' being Medium Wave - approximately 550-1500kHz, though the dial will be marked in Metres from approx. 200 to 550. 'GRAM' selects the record player, and 'LONG' is the Long Wave band (1000 to 2000Metres approx =150 to 300kHz), which isn't used by broadcast stations in the Americas Point (2) - As I'm sure you know the radio is made to run on 240V -if AC this will be @50Hz, although I see that the operating voltage is selectable, so it can be set to 110v, but, if that record deck uses an AC motor it will be designed for 50Hz, and will run at the wrong speed on 60Hz mains. Other forum members may have specific knowledge of this model.

28th Feb 2017, 5:00 am	#4
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono That's a Gerrard resistive dropper in the bottom, had one as a child to run a cine projector, boy do they get hot! Its going to be 50Hz mains. Its easier to speed up a turntable 20% mechanically than slow it down. I've seen that cabinet before, sunrise, but not with the lid open. Was there not a Pye console radio in a similar cabinet?

28th Feb 2017, 7:29 am	#5
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,224	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono I know nothing about this, but... The turntable motor (in photo 3) seems to have a black plastic cap on the side. This might well be on the end of a carbon brush holder. In other words the motor might be a 'universal' AC/DC type. In which case the mains frequency won't matter. The turntable speed could be controlled by a mechanical governor. One thing bothers me. I don't see any rectifier for the radio chassis. None of the valves mentioned is a rectifier. Is there a metal rectifier in there somewhere? Or was it made for DC mains only? Such sets did exist.

28th Feb 2017, 8:04 am	#6
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono There seems to be a transformer on the lower left of the chassis, unless it is a very large choke. DC3/HL I don't know, DC2/PEN is 40v 0.1A heater, but AC/S1VM is 4v 1A heater so unless some of the valves are wrong'uns, its a very odd heater chain!

28th Feb 2017, 8:19 am	#7
Cobaltblue Moderator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Exeter, Devon and Poole, Dorset UK. Posts: 6,879	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono It looks like a Model G/RG/DC The Manufacturers service sheet can be obtained here http://www.service-data.com/product....43/6579/m15143 Sam's Right one of those valves doesn't belong. Cheers Mike T __________________ Invisible airwaves crackle with life or at least they used to Mike T BVWS member. www.cossor.co.uk

28th Feb 2017, 9:06 am	#8
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Interesting set, preselector, details of conversion to AC, gram motor is adjustable for speed, loads of detail on the manufacturer's sheet, but no valve types as far as I can see! Looks to be a 0.1A series chain so the output valve is correct, the AC/S1VM is wrong. Can't find the third one DC3/HL but seems to be in the same series as the DC2/PEN. Ah, DC/HL & DC3/HL, its in the Radiomuseum list, 0.1A heater, so thats the correct valve. The AC/S1VM is out of the AC version. Someone had their wires crossed. So you will need to find the corresponding 0.1A heater valve to complete the chain. There is a DC2/SGVM so that is probably it. Heaven knows if you will find one. Or do the conversion to AC mains that is on the sheet? Last edited by Boater Sam; 28th Feb 2017 at 9:19 am. Reason: more

28th Feb 2017, 9:32 am	#9
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono The pdf at http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/dc2sgvm.pdf will help.

28th Feb 2017, 7:55 pm	#10
MrCurvedLimos Diode Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA. Posts: 4	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Ah! Thank you very much for your help everyone! It's very good to find a schematic. I will have to work through it and see how well it matches what I have, but hopefully it will be closer than the AC version. I agree that the AC/S1VM seemed like the odd man out with its 1A heater. I'll have to figure that out. Yes, it is a Garrard resistive dropper. It has settings for both AC and DC, which you can't see in my photo because it's behind that plug. In the configuration it came in my door, you can see one pin in the 220 hole, and on the back side of the plug, the 2nd pin is in the AC hole. It's obviously designed to get very hot... you can see the holes in the bottom of the cabinet for airflow. The rectifier is on the very bottom right of the cabinet (looking from the rear), not really very visible in my photo, but I'm attaching another photo that shows it. The component on the lower left of the chassis is a choke. That big grey capacitor box that says "Pye 9 MF" on it is a little worrisome, as it has about 10 wires connected to it; hopefully the schematic will clarify what size caps are potted in it. The Garrard changer seems very well built. I know almost zero about phonographs, but just playing with the tone arm and stop switch/brake on the top side, they move smoothly and the stop switch makes a definitive click when the lever reaches the ends of its travel. I don't see any pot metal problems from just looking around... those are spider webs in the photo, not cracks. That tone control is a different issue. The knob and shaft were cast as a single piece of metal that reach down into the control body, and when I tried to turn it, it twisted right off in my fingers. I'll have to see if I can get someone to machine a shaft for me, and then try to replicate a knob for it. Long term project. Another thing I have to deal with is the wormy wood. The side and front panels all have exit holes from wood boring beetles. No evidence that it's an active infestation (no frass in evidence), but on the side of caution, I'm thinking I should seal the cabinet in a bag and watch it for a year to see if any insects emerge or any new frass shows up. Attached Thumbnails

28th Feb 2017, 10:23 pm	#11
Cobaltblue Moderator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Exeter, Devon and Poole, Dorset UK. Posts: 6,879	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono The first picture appears to show that the AC conversion unit has been fitted so that's good news Cheers Mike T __________________ Invisible airwaves crackle with life or at least they used to Mike T BVWS member. www.cossor.co.uk

28th Feb 2017, 10:45 pm	#12
MrCurvedLimos Diode Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA. Posts: 4	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Just reading through the data sheet. The correct tube lineup is given as DC2/SG VM, DC3/HL, DC2/Pen. You were right Sam! And I was wrong. It does not have an AC/S1 VM in it. These spray shield Mazda tubes are so hard to read, the only way I succeed is with heavy image processing. I was being lazy, looked at the tube, and thought, "Oh, that looks just like the AC/S1 VM in my other radio," and made the wrong assumption. When I do the image processing, look what results! It's a DC2/SG VM. The series string for the heaters includes 3 coils also, and it seems the total drop of the string is ~200V. So I'm confused that my unit appears to have some adaptation for 110V. Maybe the string is split in half somehow. I will have to dig into it more, trace some wires around. Attached Thumbnails

28th Feb 2017, 10:56 pm	#13
crackle Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Basildon, Essex, UK. Posts: 4,100	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Nice old radiogram. There are what look like very large worm holes in the board by the rectifiers. Mike

1st Mar 2017, 2:43 am	#14
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono The worm is a minor problem, any good woodworm treatment followed by bagging it up for a month or so will ensure that nothing lives. Formaldehyde is great if you can get any. Once the cabinet is properly dry, the worm gives up anyway, it only breeds in damp cold wood, once the mature beetles have left, if the conditions are dry, they will not reinfest. If you can buy real naphtha mothballs, they work too.

8th Mar 2017, 9:23 pm	#15
MrCurvedLimos Diode Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA. Posts: 4	Re: Help ID 1932 Pye radio-phono Question about model years of British radios around this time. Did they match the calendar year, or were new models introduced in the 2nd half of the previous year for the Christmas season, or neither? The manufacturer's service sheet for the G/RG/DC was issued Feb. 28, 1933. What model year would this radio be, as a result?