27th Jan 2022, 12:03 pm | #41 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Flintshire, UK.
Posts: 707
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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Same applies with VoIP - The telephone sockets on routers accept a normal analogue 'Touch Tone' telephone as do the sockets on Analogue Terminal Adapters - the current Grandstream HT8XX range of ATAs even work with old rotary pulse dialling telephones. Again there are VoIP telephones but they don't plug into the 'telephone' socket on the router - they plug into the Cat 5 sockets that your computers plug into. But the phone user still just dials away as normal. BT/Openreach are just delivering the 'signal' locally from the exchange in a different way. Bear in mind that all the links between exchanges have been 'digital' for many years. Doesn't seem that long ago since I was working as senior commissioning engineer on getting the Post Office's first large public electronic exchange , a TXE4, going at Birmingham 'Rectory' in the mid 1970's. I doubt that your local exchange has 11Kv sockets in it! It will still have power plant working off 250 volts. Most have a 'fall back' generator in them. |
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27th Jan 2022, 12:16 pm | #42 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 262
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
I thought I'd chime in with my experience.
We upgraded to a new Vodafone full fibre package last year and as a result were switched over to the new VoIP internet-only phone system. But it didn't work. I could call out, but not receive calls - I could hear a faint buzzing from the router that sounded like it was attempting to ring the phone, but it didn't ring. I wasn't particularly bothered, since we never use the landline - the only calls we get now are sales calls! But after a few months curiosity got the better of me and I discovered that the line was working fine - but the phone connected needed to be a modern (early 2010s-era) phone. My suspicion is that the router doesn't provide sufficient current for the older phones to detect that there is an incoming call. And I should clarify, that by "old phones" I mean ones from the late 90s / early 2000s - not the old bell-ring GPO phones (although I did try one to see if it could receive incoming calls, and predictably it couldn't). |
27th Jan 2022, 2:21 pm | #43 | |
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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27th Jan 2022, 2:47 pm | #44 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,310
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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In BT’s case the main reason for this change is the manufacturers of the “ modern” existing digital exchanges( some of which were installed in the early 1990s) are no longer supporting them after 2025, so the decision was taken to go VOIP.
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"Nothing is as dangerous as being too modern;one is apt to grow old fashioned quite suddenly." |
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27th Jan 2022, 3:40 pm | #45 |
Octode
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grantham, Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 1,177
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
The lady I mentioned doesn't have broadband, just a POTS, into which the emergency unit plugs. So no digital signals come into the house.
But my point is that for the last many years a 50V supply has been coming in to power the emergency interface, this is not possible with IP signals, they will be digital. Apparently there are more than 1 million of these phones, plus others in lifts and similar emergency situations. No power, no signal, no working. |
27th Jan 2022, 4:41 pm | #46 |
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
Doesn't look like the unintended consequences have been addressed properly. The VOIP to POTS could be at the exchange end, benefitting from the battery in the exchange, for those alarm systems IF they put 50V on the line.
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27th Jan 2022, 6:09 pm | #47 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,310
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
50 v would be handy, then engineers would know a pair( of wires) was in use. At the moment there is no way to identify the internet only lines apart from disconnecting and checking for the presence of a DSLAM. I believe the BT boffins are working on a solution to the identification problem. It’s a bad idea to do away with the 50 volts as it provides “whetting”, the voltage to overcome bad connections and carry the signal further.
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"Nothing is as dangerous as being too modern;one is apt to grow old fashioned quite suddenly." |
27th Jan 2022, 6:27 pm | #48 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 14,007
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
Out of curiosity I've been mentioning this transition to various friends/relatives [age range from about 12 and 95] and asking them what they think of it. The biggest response has been utter indifference; only one such person [in his 50s] thought any loss of landline would be problematic [he has lots of international contafcts who have been calling him on his landline-number for 25 years] - when I explained that with "WiFi calling" he could keep the same number but have the calls routed to his mobile when he is in range of WiFi and automatic redirect to his mobile when there's no wifi signal] he was interested - so I set it up for him and he is delighted.
Relevant: I heard Giles Brandreth being interviewed regarding today's announcement of the sad death of Barry Cryer; Giles quipped "At last I can get rid of the landline - Barry was the last person who ever called me on it to tell me his latest joke!" I suspect that for the vast majority of people the switch to FTTP and POTS-over-fibre will be about as relevant as the demise of telegrams or telex was 40 years ago.
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27th Jan 2022, 8:38 pm | #49 | |
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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27th Jan 2022, 9:11 pm | #50 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Newton Abbot, Devon, UK.
Posts: 761
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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27th Jan 2022, 9:22 pm | #51 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fakenham, Norfolk, UK.
Posts: 4,259
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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27th Jan 2022, 11:12 pm | #52 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,310
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
Quote:
Of course the customer has to power the router, which is the problem really. If power fails then broadband & phone go. The whole thing( as seems to be increasingly common these days, or maybe I’m just getting old) doesn’t seem to have been thought out properly.
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"Nothing is as dangerous as being too modern;one is apt to grow old fashioned quite suddenly." |
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28th Jan 2022, 10:46 am | #53 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,099
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
Any idea how the "star" services get done in this new world?
I would be glad to see the back of their extortionate prices for things that make them money - like call redirect. |
31st Jan 2022, 9:39 pm | #54 |
Heptode
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 528
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
BT want to put the onus on the suppliers to deal with the change in the network...
https://www.bt.com/help/landline/dig...endant-showing |
1st Feb 2022, 1:11 pm | #55 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bradford on Avon, Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,310
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
The “ internet only” lines( known as SOGEA) don’t presently work with BT Redcare. They do work with the lifeline units though, ( plugged into the router) but again problems if power goes out. I’m sure someone will come up with a UPS for routers that switches over to a sealed lead acid battery. Now there’s an idea……….
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"Nothing is as dangerous as being too modern;one is apt to grow old fashioned quite suddenly." |
1st Feb 2022, 4:28 pm | #56 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Stafford, Staffs. UK.
Posts: 2,532
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
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There's an idea..... |
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1st Feb 2022, 5:51 pm | #57 |
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
My UPS (yes, someone has thought of it) will hold up the server and router for an hour or so. Not good for a prolonged power cut as the north of GB is having now.
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1st Feb 2022, 11:29 pm | #58 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 2,181
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Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines
Quote:
AsPaul says , from my forays on FB on BT GROUPS I've discovered that it may be possible for those of us with several sockets in house to simply move the point of connection from the existing master socket to close to the router. It would appear to be similar to something I've done in past with BB ,where I extend the BT LINE ( in 2Wire mode) to beside my PC, add a slave socket , plug filter into the socket and filter BB to PC, and using a plug convertor to a master socket provide a feed to my telephones and hence to rest of house. In the case of a feed from the router, what will be needed ( from my understanding), is to get a feed from the router tele socket to a master socket to feed the house. What is uncertain is whether the system over the router socket will allow LD signalling. In which case it might be necessary to fit a small switch which converts from LD to tone signalling. Perhaps the simplest is a Panasonic KXT 308 OR 206 . For the novice, a 206 is simpler in that it does not need a system phone. |
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2nd Feb 2022, 10:38 am | #59 |
Tetrode
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Caernarfon, Gwynedd, UK.
Posts: 51
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
All of my extension sockets go through a BT REN booster because I have several old dial phones in the house, so when BT changed our FTTP to their VOIP service last year all I did was plug the whole system into the telephone socket on the back of the router via a Dialgizmo and all the phone are still able to dial out using LD
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2nd Feb 2022, 9:12 pm | #60 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Stafford, Staffs. UK.
Posts: 2,532
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Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines
Incidentally, this subject was discussed on a BBC programme this morning. Somewhere in Wales there was a village that half of it was converted to the new system quite early. People were surprised when the phones didn't work in a power cut, though as I've said before most people only have cordless phones which die anyway in a power cut.
The photo I added a few posts ago shows the UPS and FTTC VDSL modem. The two cordless base stations are also supplied from this. The router and NAS have another upstairs, and there's a third UPS looking after a couple of other Synology servers. |