Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Julie_C · 3rd Dec 2009, 12:35 pm

Hi Everyone,

I've recently been given a couple of 405 line TV's which appear to run.. The tube lights up anyway...

So, I've gone through all the options regarding getting a 405 line source so I can get some sort of picture on them, and it seems to me there are various different ways, and various different expenses.

For me, I'd rather have something "cheap and cheerful" as these may be the only 2 vintage TV's I ever have.

Therefore the Aurora is out, as is Kat's Myth TV solution, that leaves the video route.

So I go to the car boot and buy the oldest VHS I can find, but I need a 405 Line Tape? Where do these come from?
I'm assuming that there's a modulator needed too? I don't seem to be able to find a sensible circuit diagram, or ready made one (I don't have the test kit necessary i think.)

Problem is, I don't seem to be able to find a complete solution listed anywhere, and I'm thinking I'm getting in over my head here.. (This really is several steps up from cleaning and tweaking phones!!)

So does anyone know where to get the tapes from, and what about the modulator? Is there a list of known to work video machines?

It would be fab if I could get some recognisable TV on these screens.

Thanks

Julie

ppppenguin · 3rd Dec 2009, 12:46 pm

The easiest answer is to buy an Aurora. Just plug and play. Well worth the money and you'll never have to worry about 405 sources again.

If you buy an old VHS you will still need to make 405 line tapes, or beg somebody to make them for you. This needs a standards converter. VHS and MythTV will both need a modulator. There are 3 published designs: Darius, David Looser and mine. The last of these can be seen on the publications page of my website. Not so easy to source the parts for mine these days. All need a modest amount of constructional skill and ideally some testgear to set up accurately.

I'll say it again - just splash out on an Aurora.

Boom · 3rd Dec 2009, 1:00 pm

An Aurora any day. It might seem like a fair amount to pay but it is well spent and if need be you will almost certainly get your money back selling it on.

Julie_C · 3rd Dec 2009, 1:01 pm

Thanks Jeffrey..

However £150 is a bit steep for what is essentially a "bit of fun" to see if these old tellys work..
I was thinking £10 video, modulator similar cost in bits plus whats kicking around here, and source a tape for somewhere online...

I'd love to by the Aurora, but maybe I need to see if I can get these to work first..
I had read your articles in the course of my research.

Julie

Steve_P · 3rd Dec 2009, 1:29 pm

Well, we don't reccommend that you plug old tellies straight into the mains. I don't know how good you are at these things, you might be brilliant, you might never have had the back off a TV before, we simply don't know. (I say this to everyone by the way, Male, Female or Martian!)

They have come on, but never leave them on when you're not around. Do you get a raster. (A lit up blank screen). Try adjusting Brightness and Contrast and see. Do you hear a 10 kHz whistle from the back? If it has a tuner, does turning it create noises on the sound and flashes on the screen?

Is there anyone nearby that you can take them to who has an Aurora? Or come to our next BVWS event maybe? www.bvws.org.uk

They will need parts changed, even if they do give some sort of picture.

Cheers,

Steve P.

BassoonBloke · 3rd Dec 2009, 1:32 pm

Hi Julie,

Check for a PM

.

Alan

.

peter_scott · 3rd Dec 2009, 2:03 pm

Hi Julie,

The modulator that Darius designed for his standards converter is very cheap and easy to build. It is a very nice stable design that shouldn't present any great problems.

Peter

See:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oCEpds9YoP...April_2004.png

HamishBoxer · 3rd Dec 2009, 2:14 pm

Apart from running the sets up slowly via a variac or 100W bulb in series.Having got that far ,if there is noise from the speaker and possibly a snowy effect screen they are Possibly ok.You could always if availble feed a 405 pattern generator in thru the aerial.If it looks ok than its worth as mentioned go for the Aurora.

David

paulsherwin · 3rd Dec 2009, 2:16 pm

The simple fact is that running old 405 line TVs isn't a 'bit of fun', it's a serious commitment. If your TVs are unrestored they will almost certainly need extensive electrical restoration work. This is a skilled job and quite dangerous for the unwary (there are very high voltages inside.) You are quite lucky not to have had any flashes, bangs and smoke already.

If you find the cost of an Aurora unacceptable, you're unlikely to want to pay the restoration and ongoing maintenance costs that the TVs require, or invest the time and effort needed to gain the appropriate technical skills.

Sorry to sound so negative, but that's the way it is

Paul

Julie_C · 3rd Dec 2009, 2:42 pm

Thanks everyone for the help so far.

I really started this (and will continue) as a bit of a voyage of discovery..
Like I said, they light up, and there is a raster. Turning the tuning knob (rotary switch) does indeed produces pops and bangs etc.
The previous owner powered it up at their home and left it running for 10-15mins or so with no obvious ill effects. (They had vaccumed the dust from the back first).
So given the fact it appeared to be working, I thought it would be a bit of fun to see if I could get a picture on it of something recognisable as a TV program. (We actually thought watching Strictly Come Dancing on it might be quite appropriate!).

I understand this is a very old TV, and the inherent dangers these old sets have. I am accustomed to working with HT, having spent many years repairing CRT computer monitors. (Board Swapping and re-soldering joints mind, not proper fault finding!!)
You never know, this might start me off and I'll want to do more, but until that one shows me itself working and I can see 405 line tv, then I can't really justify the expense of a £150 gadget...

ppppenguin · 3rd Dec 2009, 3:13 pm

Now we know what you're trying to do it strikes me that the best way ahead is to take your TV to a nearby forum member who has an Aurora. Then you can "try before you buy".

Any volunteers near MK willing to help a young lady in distress?

Julie_C · 3rd Dec 2009, 4:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ppppenguin

Now we know what you're trying to do it strikes me that the best way ahead is to take your TV to a nearby forum member who has an Aurora. Then you can "try before you buy".

Any volunteers near MK willing to help a young lady in distress?

Errrrr...

OK.. but not really what I had in mind..
If I need to spend time fixing this thing, then so be it, it's all part of the learning process...
However I'm not really going to get very far if I don't have some sort of input for the TV am I?
Maybe I'm going about this wrong? I assumed as I had what appeared to be a working telly, albeit very old and likely to be a bit decrepit.
So in my mind the logical (I know I'm not supposed to be able to do logic...

) thing to do would be to feed it a signal and see what happens.. then cure the faults you see, possibly working through the forums and whatever else and learning as you go...

Steve_P · 3rd Dec 2009, 4:58 pm

Exactly. What make and model are these sets? Then we can find out the circuits for you.

Get good tools if you haven't already. And a decent meter.

Cheers,

Steve P.

Julie_C · 3rd Dec 2009, 5:16 pm

OK, I'll read the plates when I get home tonight.

Ones a Philips in a wooden case...

Avo8 Do OK for a meter?
I don't buy cheap tools

Steve_P · 3rd Dec 2009, 5:20 pm

Yes an AVO 8 will be fine. Cartainly better than what I have anyway....

Read Model or Type Number, not Serial No.

Cheers,

Steve P.

ppppenguin · 3rd Dec 2009, 5:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie_C

OK.. but not really what I had in mind.....

Since you have a more-or-less working set I was suggesting getting it together with an Aurora to see if it's likely to be a good'un. If you get halfways decent pictures then it may be worthwhile buying your own Aurora.

Once you know the set is likely to work well somebody in the forum may have an old 405 test pattern generator they could loan or sell you. This would allow you to work on the set sensibly while considering your own Aurora.

PS:
Have a read of Steve's web pages:
http://www.oldtellys.co.uk/otindex.html

He's probably mended more tellies than I've had hot dinners and knows what he's talking about. Once we know the model number we can do a lot to help you mend the set. You've got a head start because you've been inside electronic kit before and understand some of the safety issues. You've also got an AVO and know how to use it.

PPS: If you want to know a bit too much about standards converters, modulators and related things have a look at the publications page on my website.

dseymo1 · 3rd Dec 2009, 5:52 pm

If you're patient, you might pick up an old 405 line pattern generator cheaply.
It won't provide much in the way of entertainment

but will confirm if your sets are working. You could then perhaps inject a proper picture into the generator's modulator, if you can find a suitable source.

Boom · 3rd Dec 2009, 7:04 pm

I don't know if this would do you Julie. It doesn't seem to have a SPG though. Just a modulator.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

ppppenguin · 3rd Dec 2009, 7:13 pm

Not sure why that device never came to my notice. I've reviewed virtually every bit of modern 405 related hardware that's ever been sold and seen most of the rest. Clever idea, at a guess it's based on David Looser's design.

chipp1968 · 3rd Dec 2009, 7:42 pm

I would certainly recomend saving up for the aurora..some money aside over a few months and you wont notice! Its quite fun watching vintage sets ,and great for period films, especially if the sets have a good period charm of their own. what are the ages of these sets ?

3rd Dec 2009, 12:35 pm	#1
Julie_C Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 21	Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Hi Everyone, I've recently been given a couple of 405 line TV's which appear to run.. The tube lights up anyway... So, I've gone through all the options regarding getting a 405 line source so I can get some sort of picture on them, and it seems to me there are various different ways, and various different expenses. For me, I'd rather have something "cheap and cheerful" as these may be the only 2 vintage TV's I ever have. Therefore the Aurora is out, as is Kat's Myth TV solution, that leaves the video route. So I go to the car boot and buy the oldest VHS I can find, but I need a 405 Line Tape? Where do these come from? I'm assuming that there's a modulator needed too? I don't seem to be able to find a sensible circuit diagram, or ready made one (I don't have the test kit necessary i think.) Problem is, I don't seem to be able to find a complete solution listed anywhere, and I'm thinking I'm getting in over my head here.. (This really is several steps up from cleaning and tweaking phones!!) So does anyone know where to get the tapes from, and what about the modulator? Is there a list of known to work video machines? It would be fab if I could get some recognisable TV on these screens. Thanks Julie

3rd Dec 2009, 12:46 pm	#2
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? The easiest answer is to buy an Aurora. Just plug and play. Well worth the money and you'll never have to worry about 405 sources again. If you buy an old VHS you will still need to make 405 line tapes, or beg somebody to make them for you. This needs a standards converter. VHS and MythTV will both need a modulator. There are 3 published designs: Darius, David Looser and mine. The last of these can be seen on the publications page of my website. Not so easy to source the parts for mine these days. All need a modest amount of constructional skill and ideally some testgear to set up accurately. I'll say it again - just splash out on an Aurora.

3rd Dec 2009, 1:00 pm	#3
Boom Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Westbury, Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 2,451	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? An Aurora any day. It might seem like a fair amount to pay but it is well spent and if need be you will almost certainly get your money back selling it on.

3rd Dec 2009, 1:01 pm	#4
Julie_C Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 21	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Thanks Jeffrey.. However £150 is a bit steep for what is essentially a "bit of fun" to see if these old tellys work.. I was thinking £10 video, modulator similar cost in bits plus whats kicking around here, and source a tape for somewhere online... I'd love to by the Aurora, but maybe I need to see if I can get these to work first.. I had read your articles in the course of my research. Julie

3rd Dec 2009, 1:29 pm	#5
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Well, we don't reccommend that you plug old tellies straight into the mains. I don't know how good you are at these things, you might be brilliant, you might never have had the back off a TV before, we simply don't know. (I say this to everyone by the way, Male, Female or Martian!) They have come on, but never leave them on when you're not around. Do you get a raster. (A lit up blank screen). Try adjusting Brightness and Contrast and see. Do you hear a 10 kHz whistle from the back? If it has a tuner, does turning it create noises on the sound and flashes on the screen? Is there anyone nearby that you can take them to who has an Aurora? Or come to our next BVWS event maybe? www.bvws.org.uk They will need parts changed, even if they do give some sort of picture. Cheers, Steve P. __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

3rd Dec 2009, 1:32 pm	#6
BassoonBloke Pentode Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East London, UK. Posts: 231	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Hi Julie, Check for a PM . Alan .

3rd Dec 2009, 2:03 pm	#7
peter_scott Dekatron Join Date: May 2003 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 3,274	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Hi Julie, The modulator that Darius designed for his standards converter is very cheap and easy to build. It is a very nice stable design that shouldn't present any great problems. Peter See:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oCEpds9YoP...April_2004.png __________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk https://www.youtube.com/c/PeterScott/videos

3rd Dec 2009, 2:14 pm	#8
HamishBoxer Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK. Posts: 8,932	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Apart from running the sets up slowly via a variac or 100W bulb in series.Having got that far ,if there is noise from the speaker and possibly a snowy effect screen they are Possibly ok.You could always if availble feed a 405 pattern generator in thru the aerial.If it looks ok than its worth as mentioned go for the Aurora. David

3rd Dec 2009, 2:16 pm	#9
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,941	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? The simple fact is that running old 405 line TVs isn't a 'bit of fun', it's a serious commitment. If your TVs are unrestored they will almost certainly need extensive electrical restoration work. This is a skilled job and quite dangerous for the unwary (there are very high voltages inside.) You are quite lucky not to have had any flashes, bangs and smoke already. If you find the cost of an Aurora unacceptable, you're unlikely to want to pay the restoration and ongoing maintenance costs that the TVs require, or invest the time and effort needed to gain the appropriate technical skills. Sorry to sound so negative, but that's the way it is Paul

3rd Dec 2009, 2:42 pm	#10
Julie_C Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 21	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Thanks everyone for the help so far. I really started this (and will continue) as a bit of a voyage of discovery.. Like I said, they light up, and there is a raster. Turning the tuning knob (rotary switch) does indeed produces pops and bangs etc. The previous owner powered it up at their home and left it running for 10-15mins or so with no obvious ill effects. (They had vaccumed the dust from the back first). So given the fact it appeared to be working, I thought it would be a bit of fun to see if I could get a picture on it of something recognisable as a TV program. (We actually thought watching Strictly Come Dancing on it might be quite appropriate!). I understand this is a very old TV, and the inherent dangers these old sets have. I am accustomed to working with HT, having spent many years repairing CRT computer monitors. (Board Swapping and re-soldering joints mind, not proper fault finding!!) You never know, this might start me off and I'll want to do more, but until that one shows me itself working and I can see 405 line tv, then I can't really justify the expense of a £150 gadget...

3rd Dec 2009, 3:13 pm	#11
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Now we know what you're trying to do it strikes me that the best way ahead is to take your TV to a nearby forum member who has an Aurora. Then you can "try before you buy". Any volunteers near MK willing to help a young lady in distress?

3rd Dec 2009, 4:58 pm	#13
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Exactly. What make and model are these sets? Then we can find out the circuits for you. Get good tools if you haven't already. And a decent meter. Cheers, Steve P. __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

3rd Dec 2009, 5:16 pm	#14
Julie_C Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 21	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? OK, I'll read the plates when I get home tonight. Ones a Philips in a wooden case... Avo8 Do OK for a meter? I don't buy cheap tools

3rd Dec 2009, 5:20 pm	#15
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Yes an AVO 8 will be fine. Cartainly better than what I have anyway.... Read Model or Type Number, not Serial No. Cheers, Steve P. __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

3rd Dec 2009, 5:52 pm	#17
dseymo1 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK. Posts: 3,051	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? If you're patient, you might pick up an old 405 line pattern generator cheaply. It won't provide much in the way of entertainment but will confirm if your sets are working. You could then perhaps inject a proper picture into the generator's modulator, if you can find a suitable source.

3rd Dec 2009, 7:04 pm	#18
Boom Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Westbury, Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 2,451	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? I don't know if this would do you Julie. It doesn't seem to have a SPG though. Just a modulator. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

3rd Dec 2009, 7:13 pm	#19
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? Not sure why that device never came to my notice. I've reviewed virtually every bit of modern 405 related hardware that's ever been sold and seen most of the rest. Clever idea, at a guess it's based on David Looser's design.

3rd Dec 2009, 7:42 pm	#20
chipp1968 Rest in Peace Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somerset, UK. Posts: 2,356	Re: Whats the easiest way of getting 405 lines? I would certainly recomend saving up for the aurora..some money aside over a few months and you wont notice! Its quite fun watching vintage sets ,and great for period films, especially if the sets have a good period charm of their own. what are the ages of these sets ?