Wharfedale Speakers - which one?

[WaveyDipole]

I spotted a pair of Wharfedale Programme 20 speakers locally on Gumtree but I could find very little information on them other than they are designed as background speakers for public venues and have extended bass.

I also spotted a pair of Wharfedale Linton speakers like I had many years ago which sounded very nice on my Marantz amp at the time.

Both pairs are avilable for £30 at the moment and from what I have been told, either of these would surpass in quality the (model-less) Technics speakers I have at present, but I was wondering which ones to go for.

Does anyone know anything about the Programme 20?
I must confess that the Linton is somewhat of a nosalgic choice. I think they are bigger then Diamonds, but again these seem to vary and the older ones are supposed to be better?

Anything else worth looking out for?

[kevinski]

I love my Linton's and wouldn't give them up for the world. I like them so much when my daughter wanted a set up for vinyl in her bedroom I got her a set and a Linton Record Player and a Linton amp!

[WaveyDipole]

I was also told one that a two way speaker can sound better and outperform a three way speaker because of its simpler design? Is that true?

[paulsherwin]

I also would go for the Lintons given the choice. The name has been used for many different speakers over the years but all are very pleasant to listen to. They aren't very accurate or detailed but will complement your JVC amp well.

The Programme 20s appear to be related to Diamonds and were sold for use with juke boxes in pubs. I can't find anything wrong with them but, as I say, I'd go for the Lintons.

The number of drive units doesn't mean anything, it's the overall design of the speaker that matters.

[threeseven]

One summer I had a job in a Hi-Fi shop in Leeds. The most popular brand of speakers was Wharfedale, especially the smaller models, we sold loads of them and the shop stocked many brands. They didn't suit my ear, I had a preference for RAM, which also sold well, and Acoustic Research. Another British brand that sold well was Castle Acoustics but they were more expensive so sold less.

[Diabolical Artificer]

I've had numerous Wharfdale speakers over the years the best of which were the E30s. After that some of the bookshelf type speakers are decent too, as well as some of the early big floor standing beasties like the Dovedale; these latter are too big for what you want.

I'd go for the Lintons. The Program 20s are the more modern of the two, and though I have a pair of recently made Wharfdale Active monitors, I don't think much of modern Wharfdale speakers. Wharfdale/Rank were always pretty bog standard compared to their contemporaries.

If you cant find some good E30s get the Lintons. Andy.

[WaveyDipole]

Just seen a set of 505.2's in what looks like good condition for £35. Anyone rate these at all? Some comments suggest these were better than 507's which I think were bigger?

Also, apparently Richer Sounds in Leicester has a pair of new Diamonds 9 for £40. Are these worth getting?

[Radio Wrangler]

Whatever older speakers you consider, you need to check that the cone surrounds are in good condition. A whole era had them made of plastic foam which turns into either dust or goo.

"non-polarised" electrolytic capacitors in crossovers probably need replacing, too.

There are some very nice old speakers out there.

David

[WaveyDipole]

Radio Wrangler, I was wondering about that too and was for that reason thinking whether to go for something more modern. Difficult to tell the condition of stull like that when buying off eBay. At least on Gumtree if I buy locally I can have a good look at them (at least the cones) first.

I have re-considered the Lintons as they were paper and only 20w, whereas the amps are 30w and 35w respectively. Would probably never play them at those levels but don't want to risk damaging them.

The Missions I used to have (unfortunatley don't know which model) had better stereo separation and sounded more 3D like than the Lintons, but sounded rather sterile compared to the Lintons which had more warmth. If I could find something that had good stereo separation but also some of the warmth, that would be ideal.

PS, anyone rate Celestions?

[Radio Wrangler]

Celestion made some excellent old type speakers, and their drive units were very highly rated and turned up in all sorts of posh speakers. There have been threads on here on Ditton66 spekers if you search, also a pair of Spendor BC1 changed hands at an affordable price.

Relatively minor changes in frequency response and even just in level cause all sorts of changes in subjective appearance. Angular dispersion differences and how the things are sited in your room can do things to apparent stereo separation. Some firms and magazines make fortunes out of these effects.

There's a lot of value to be had from just moving things around until you like the results.

My speaker drivers are a mix of 37 and 33 years old and are still OK (KEF B139 and Peerless K040MRF) but their surrounds are synthetic rubber sheet for the KEFs and some sort of pvc foam for the midranges.

One way out is to look for old speakers with drive units that are still available, or there are repair kits for the surrounds of some popular drivers.

If you go for new stuff, Wilmslow audio still flog a range of kits and many drivers.

In looking for old speakers, remember that air still has the same properties it always has, and go looking for something unfashionably BIG. this also makes them cheaper as there is less demand. A pair of IMF transmission lines for example.

David

[threeseven]

Had Ditton 66's myself, initially I used them in my bedroom as I was still living at home then. The floorboards were none too rigid and there was so much subsonic base from them that I had to use the bass cut filter on many albums! Just before I sold them I tried them downstairs where the floor was concrete and the difference in sound was incredible. I could run them with flat tone controls and it was a bigger room, the performance was truly remarkable. No wonder they command such high prices now.

Just remembered another Wharfedale story. My Father had a pair of Rosedales which were large, floor standers with traditionally decorative cabinets, 3 way with a 15" bass driver. They had started to sound a little strange so as we had just moved to West Yorks we took them with us on a family day out and visited Wharfedale in Idle. Dad and I went to reception and explained the problem and a very nice guy came out to talk to us. Ok he said, bring them in and we'll take a look now, come back in a few hours and they'll be ready for you.
We duly returned and the same chap came out to meet us. He explained that one bass driver had a damaged cone, a mid was out on one, an HF the other and both crossovers had damaged parts! Oh dear, Dads face took on a worried look at the thought of how much that was going to cost him. Which instantly turned to joy when the chap said it was all FOC! We were amazed, what incredible customer service.
They sounded superb when they were tried at home later.
I reckon the damage was my fault due to trying to impress my friends with excessively loud Led Zeppelin and clipping the amp!

[unitaudio]

Hello all. I've been using a pair of Wharfedale Dovedale 3 for the last 17 years. They're not small speakers but they're not huge either and over several house moves have shown themselves to be very forgiving of different acoustic environments.
They have a 12 inch bass speaker in an unusually small cabinet and give a warm bass without being overblown. Compared to my other various speakers they're quite natural sounding (which probably says more about my other speakers than it does about the Wharfedales!) and they're still not in the silly prices category. The only thing you might not like, depending on taste of course, is their relaxed delivery. Punch and dynamics are definately there but you have to crank the volume a bit for that. It doesn't suit everyone but what does?
Regards
Paul

[Diabolical Artificer]

I can attest to foam disintegration on vintage speakers. I had several pairs of Mission AR and other speakers where the foam surround went on the woofers and mids.

No one can say that such and such a speaker is the one for you,as has been said, the room,position,furniture and not least your ears all have a bearing on how they sound.

All I,d say,is to get a speaker that uses decent drivers such as Kef, Celestion, Seas, Tannoy etc. For the woofer your looking for a solid cast frame with a big magnet. Either with doped paper or a plastic type cone.The Kef b139 is a good example.As is the woofer in the Ditton 44,s.

As for the tweeters alot of vintage Celestion tweeters such as the HF2000 are ripped out their cabs and sold seperately but from experience alot of vintage speakers I,ve had, have had blown coils (They can be fixed usualy as the break is mostly near the terminals) so I think theres alot to be said for the view that old tired tweeters should be replaced by modern tweeters. Seas make some very good reasonably priced tweeters should you want to do so.

You also have the design of the speaker to consider but unless your very knowledgeable about what is an almost occult subject I wouldn't worry about the specs too much.

Good luck in your search,Andy.

[TrevorG3VLF]

I have a pair of Wharfdale Unit 5s (same as Dovedales but bigger?). I went with my sister and a neighbour to collect these in her Austin A35 car from a new discount store called Comet.

My neigbour and I constructed the cabinets from 3/4 chip board. Each 8X4 sheet could be cut without waste. The sheets were transported by train !

The pair of cabinets constructed by the neighbour were veneered with rosewood, mine used teak which was all the rage then.

Both pairs of speakers are still in use and work better than my ears.

[unitaudio]

Hello again. Another advantage with Wharfedale speakers of this vintage is that The bass speaker surrounds are synthetic rubber, The midrange surrounds are felt (!) and the tweeters have mylar diaphragms. Mine are early 70's, all original and still perfectly ok. The bass speakers have cast chassis and huge square magnets.
What Dr.Wobble says about drive units is quite right. I've got a pair of Scan-Dyna speakers (can't remember the model) with Seas drivers and again, the woofers have synthetic rubber surrounds. They're of similar vintage to the Wharfedales and in good condition. They're very pleasant to listen to and they cost me the princely sum of £7! It goes to show, some unfashionable speakers can be absolute bargains.
Regards
Paul

[paulsherwin]

Good quality speakers often turn up at car boot sales and on Freecycle / Freegle. Even asking around among friends and family can often produce a pair for little money.

[bikerhifinut]

Originally Posted by WaveyDipole

Also, apparently Richer Sounds in Leicester has a pair of new Diamonds 9 for £40. Are these worth getting?

Yes.

They are very good speakers which will work well with modern solid state amps with decent power outputs. (relatively low sensitivity).

The caveat:

They are small standmounters, and WILL need a decent rigid stand to give of their best. You don't need fancy stuff. My best mate bought a pair of these because I said they were OK, without even having a listen . Fortunately on his system they sounded just fine and I was very impressed overall. We stuck them on a set of cheapie stands from Richers, filled with a bit of dried sand from B & Q to give them a bit of mass and damping. £40 isn't much for a set of new speakers that will give years of service, and you'll get a warranty for at least the first year.
As long as small and neat is OK in your book and you aren't looking for floor shaking bass, and you don't mind using stands ("bookshelf" is a misnomer in my view), then I would think you'll be pleased enough.
Why faff about with possibly damaged/worn out/ etc speakers unless you really want something genuinely period over something that works fine. Just my point of view please don't take it the wrong way.

Andy.

[maninashed]

I have a pair of Lintons in my work room (too cold in the shed) and if my memory serves me correctly, they have a rubber surround, not foam. I use them for test purposes and enjoyment while working and they sound sublime. Almost as good as the B&W s or Tannoys downstairs. I would recommend them as a great used buy, PROVIDING they haven't been abused.
Bill

[unitaudio]

I've had 2 pairs of Lintons, both pairs regrettably sold now but I always rated them. I still have a pair of Mission 781's. These are from Mission's "upside down" range with the tweeter and bass port underneath the woofer. They're not as smooth as the Lintons but they're more detailed and dynamic as compensation. The 6.5 inch woofers have polypropylene cones and rubber surrounds, last well and give a good account of themselves. Bass, although not subterranean, is good enough if you don't use them in a room the size of a hangar.
They're best used on stands to avoid boominess and allow them to breathe. The only problem is the tweeters which are a bit fragile. When I got mine both tweeters were blown and it took quite a while to find the correct replacements. However, I'm glad I persevered (I almost fitted cheaper generic tweeters). My friend also cooked the tweeters in his identical speakers which he bought new.
I know messing about replacing tweeters isn't ideal when you just want to plug and play but because they were faulty they only cost a tenner and when eventually I found the tweeters they were only another £10 secondhand. What, me a skinflint? Absolutely, I'm the first to admit it!
Regards
Paul

[steviewonder]

hi to all,
Personally I would not consider any of the xp range,As many years ago the hifi shop I once worked in had a pair of dentons on stands,to demonstrate how poor a speaker could sound.The Linton uses the same bass driver.various models were produced,including the final one,the 3xp,which used a isobutyl 1" tweeter,and were not too bad overall.Try to aquire a pair of celestion ditton 15xr if possible.Similar size to lintons,but leaps ahead in sound quality by miles..
regards,
Steve.