25th May 2018, 7:18 pm | #21 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wellington, New Zealand.
Posts: 653
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Over here in NZ they have legislation that requires the plugs be cut off second hand mains equipment being sold if it does not have a safety test certificate (registered electrician checks insulation etc with megger then certifies OK) . Which is quite sensible in general but can be a right pain for us valve radio enthusiasts when the equipment all turns up with the mains leads neatly clipped off.
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25th May 2018, 7:20 pm | #22 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Quote:
Cheers, GJ
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26th May 2018, 10:46 am | #23 |
Nonode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
LIVERWIRE?'s original post was about "chargeable" repairs & mains flex. But the issues raised(& also raised in other recent posts) are a wake-up message to all of us involved in vintage radio/electronics in the 21st century. We must consider the safety of ourselves, our homes & family, mates we do an odd repair job for, and customers of folk in business. Purists might insist that old cloth covered VIR flex should be retained & just two-core at that. Maybe some specialist auction houses advise vintage radio repairers/restorers that original wiring enhances the value of a thousand quid old radiogram. But those auction houses should & will have public liability insurance. I submit that any person who repairs/restores & then sells vintage radios etc. as a business - should hold business insurance, should have relevant technical qualifications, and should hold PAT certification.
Mike Barker has clearly explained the BVWS's stance on mains leads & plugs at their auctions. eBay seems to have a mass of smallprint regarding disclaimers etc. I guess that local ARS junk sales are just private within the membership & amateur fraternity. I've heard that VMARS are tightening up their auction procedures. As for private sales via this Forum site between members - long may it continue, but it does involve a measure of trust regarding safety. Regards, David |
26th May 2018, 8:39 pm | #24 | |
Moderator
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Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
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If you put your car in for an MOT, which is required by the laws of the land, there are clauses in the fine print that they will rev the living daylights out of your engine for an emission test and that there is a significant risk that the engine will be destroyed during the test and that you, the owner accept the risk. Maybe something similar for a proper PAT test with 25A ground bonding and full high-pot insulation tests is carried out as part of all repairs - at the owner's risk! As a sideways thought, I wonder how all the mains cable snippers handle stuff with readily available removable mains cables? David
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27th May 2018, 9:15 am | #25 | |
Hexode
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Torrington, Devon UK.
Posts: 446
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Quote:
‘Modified and refurbished equipment are included within the scope of the regulations. Where equipment is refurbished to its original specification, it will be treated as second-hand equipment. However, if the refurbishment uses different types of components, it will be considered as modified electrical equipment. Modified equipment will need to be assessed by the person carrying out the modifications to determine whether the modification may have introduced hazards or risks which were not covered by the original design. In this case, it is likely that the equipment would be considered as new equipment rather than second-hand equipment. This will require the person carrying out the modification to carry out all of those exercises required of an original manufacturer. For example, preparation of technical documentation, drawing up an EC DoC and placing the CE marking on the product.’ I was hoping to be able to offer this as a service and have it PAT tested by an electrician but I am unsure now. Regards Graham |
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27th May 2018, 9:16 am | #26 | |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Royal Berkshire, UK.
Posts: 471
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
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'No, it is not a legal requirement to replace non-safety type 3-pin mains plugs PROVIDED the non-safety (non-insulated Live & Neutral pins) style plug is correctly wired, in good condition & correctly fused. A mains cable using the old colour coding system, so long as it is in safe condition, correctly rated for the appliance, correctly earthed (where applicable) and has suitable strain relief, you are not legally required to replace either item. Provided both the mains lead & plug are in safe working condition, you should inform the owner and the operative that this equipment/instrument uses the old style mains wiring colour code and a non-safety style mains plug. If however, someone gets a belt or is killed after you have deemed the item is safe, it is your reasonability!' His personal opinion, you probably should change both the mains lead & plug. These days you can buy 'vintage looking' mains leads & 'bakelite looking' safety mains plugs which conform to modern standards, the likely hood is, the very device they're connected to, won't! It's down to you at the time of testing, will the lead & plug still be safe up to the items next inspection? Mark |
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27th May 2018, 11:06 am | #27 |
Nonode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen, UK.
Posts: 2,858
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Well that's great. Graham & Mark - many thanks. As I suspected, and have recently encouraged Forum folk to do, we all need to up our game, safety wise !
How many Forum folk have received jibes about old men in anoraks pottering about in their sheds, eh ? I guess that if we are to gain the trust of the public, and potential purchasers in particular, electrical safety must be a priority. Lets face it - many of us are approaching, if not past, three score years and ten. So what are our families &/or executors to do with all those cherished mains sets in our collections ? They'll end up in a skip if we can't assure them before we pop off that they are electrically safe. Radio museums, I've heard over the years, are chokka block. Some have folded - such as Henlow & Fort Perch Rock. Others have lost their technically skilled voluntary staff due to ill health or sadly passing away. Therefore us old-uns must encourage young blood into our vintage radio fraternity, but the 21st century demands that electrical safety is a priority. Old (we must keep two core cloth covered vir flex, & we shall keep flogging AC/DC radios) stick in the muds should be seriously encouraged to change their ways. I would go as far to say that serious Forum wheeler dealers should follow Mark's example and obtain C & G 2377 Certification. Several years back I acquired a heap of surplus mains powered test equipment. Most of it was given away. To local vintage chums, some Forum &/or BVWS folk, and some ARS's. Every one was PAT tested with a new pat tester I had bought for my own personal use. As well as other safety examination & testing, etc. Had I been an internet or auction wheeler-dealer I might have made over a grand. The cost of a PAT tester, and indeed a decent modern Megger & a DMM, is relatively small compared to what some folk make in the vintage radio marketplace. Regards, David |
27th May 2018, 11:10 am | #28 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
You can pay around £30 to get something PAT tested. Or if you’re a sneaky sod like me I get the guys who come round and do the stuff in the office to do it when they pass through for nothing
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27th May 2018, 11:54 am | #29 |
Hexode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Royal Berkshire, UK.
Posts: 471
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Mr Bungle, I like your style!
Mind you, the look on the guy's face when he last came to our lab at work, & sat on my bench was a homer, a DAC90A. He dared not connect his PAT but did give the set a visual inspection, mainly for interest I felt. Yesterday, my daughter was horrified at the state of the original mains lead on my unrestored/pending restoration Cossor 501AC, which hasn't been used in 45-odd years. I did however, show her its new (but original looking) replacement, complete with modern, 3-pin safety mains plug, which looks just like black bakelite ... I feel this sort of repair is sympathetic to the sets origins, & everyone's safety. Speaking of which, how would we stand home insurance wise, if something were to happen to one of our sets, following 'us' repairing such at item & then bringing it into our own home. Hmmm, there's a thought. Mark |
27th May 2018, 2:58 pm | #30 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Your home insurance would probably be voided. Check your policy. Mine has a clause in it which covers anything modified, storage of high energy batteries and anything involving low voltage DC installations. I have additional insurance as I run a business from home as well that covers that however.
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27th May 2018, 3:27 pm | #31 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Surely, somewhere down the line there must be a requirement to prove reckless endangerment or malice. There must have been countless home repaired/modified/botched items responsible for accidents in every conceivable field, not just ours. We've all seen examples of gas poker soldering and Sellotape insulation and the like. Fair game of course, and hopefully not representative of members here, but a well executed restoration/repair, following good practice, that just didn't meet the criteria for newly manufactured goods would be a difficult one to prosecute.
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27th May 2018, 3:49 pm | #32 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Quote:
The offence which would be prosecuted, incidentally, would be one of breaching the regulations. I don't think there needs to be recklessness or malice involved for anyone to be guilty of that. EDIT: It's just occcurred to me that you might be talking about the case of a repair for return to the original owner, not a repair and then a resale. My comments only apply in the repair and resale case. Cheers, GJ
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27th May 2018, 3:54 pm | #33 |
Moderator
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
I've seen a few such cases reported on the BBC news website. They generally involve small traders or DIYers working on fixed wiring. The big boys don't get prosecuted.
A "good" lawyer will argue that you did wrong either in replacing (modernising) or not replacing (negligence) a mains leads, whatever the case may be. Imagine if the Grenfell Tower fire had alledgedly started in a vintage radio restored or repaired by a forum member. He wouldn't stand a chance in court.
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27th May 2018, 4:05 pm | #34 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Indeed. Sad but true. Beko I think it was started that one.
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27th May 2018, 4:26 pm | #35 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,198
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
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A vehicle is inherently a much more potentially lethal product than a radio, yet classic vehicle owners and restorers are now assumed in law to be a responsible safety-conscious bunch of folk. So much so that such vehicles over 40 years old are no longer subject to the MoT test, which I guess is the automotive equivalent of a PAT test. And there's no problem getting insurance cover because the companies take a reasonable view of the actual risk which, based on their experience, is minimal. Similarly, I see no reason for household insurers to take a pessimistic view of running vintage electronics. I must confess though that personally I'm cautious about leaving vintage electronics plugged in, unattended for substantial periods of time. Stuff happens. Likewise, leaving vintage kit in inexperienced hands can in my experience be problematic because user expectations may be inappropriate. But then I don't make a living from radio restoration. Martin
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27th May 2018, 4:37 pm | #36 |
Nonode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
Just did a quick Google of "Electrical Flex". Loads of suppliers. The first two on the page were "Lamp Spares" & Amazon. Lamp spares were offering 3 core 0.75mm braided flex in antique gold for the retro look, at £2.99/m.
Well worth the dosh to keep the vintage look of our old radios, whilst observing safe wiring practice, I would have thought. The BVWS have been advertising Electrolytics & other capacitors, and great electrical spray. Perhaps those in BVWS management who also are Forum members(& have read this thread) might consider finding a worthwhile source of suitable & safe vintage looking flex which could allay the concerns raised in this particular thread ? If they make a profit on a 100m coil, then all the better for BVWS funds. I would give the same encouragement to VMARS. Regards, David |
27th May 2018, 5:07 pm | #37 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,311
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
This should work fine for folks who are happy with a vintage 'look'. It could be that the OP's customer has put the radio in for repair rather than replacement because it really is vintage though. He may or may not be happy to get something 'lookalike' back.
Cheers, GJ
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27th May 2018, 6:45 pm | #38 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
As I understand it PAT is not a legal requirement.
However electrical equipment must meet the necessary regulations, thus PAT is a method to demonstrate that equipment has been tested and is safe to use. I have the highest regard for H&S having been involved with writing Risk Assessments and working along side H&S professionals. I would like to see a simple definitive guide being produced for all vintage restoration. Cheers John |
27th May 2018, 7:03 pm | #39 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
PAT isn't a legal requirement you're right but it's important for H&S compliance and a condition of many business insurance policies. This invariably involves selling things privately where you are a sole trader in concept.
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27th May 2018, 8:54 pm | #40 |
Dekatron
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,735
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Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.
There used to be such a thing in English law as a requirement for men's rea -- guilty mind, i.e. whether the defendant believed themself to be doing something wrong. However, it has been disregarded lately, as it was making it too difficult to establish guilt.
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