Help please - Prinz magnon duo convertible projector.

[louispompey]

Hello everyone, thanks for reading my post.

I have recently found a “Prinz Magnon duo convertible” projector in my grandmother’s loft and am trying to get it working. There are many 8mm reels with it and I would love to get them playing. I have set everything up as described in the manual but every time I feed the film through it seems to just get mangled up and I'm forced to reverse it and pull it out with tweezers.

Am I missing something simple here? I have absolutely no experience with projectors so if anyone could offer any advice whatsoever it would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Louis

[vidjoman]

'Duo' suggests it will show Standard 8mm and Super 8mm film. Make sure you have it set for the correct type as the sprocket holes are different. Wrong setting will damage the film and chew it up.
Also check that the top and bottom loops are correct or that can also chew up the film.
Have you serviced the machine? as sitting in a loft for any time will have dried up bearings and may have a slipping belt etc. I don't know this machine in detail so these are problems that affect most projectors.

[louispompey]

Thanks vidjoman.

You are correct that it can play both standard and super 8mm, I think I have that setting right.
I shall look into getting it serviced. The thing that puzzled me is that the very first reel I tried after years of neglect ran perfectly.

[Radio Wrangler]

Prinz was Dixon's own-brand so it doesn't give any clue to who actually made it. It's from an era when imports were made from wherever was cheapest and the brand name was intended to make it sound German or Austrian which was where the best brands were then thought to live. A decade later Japanese sounding own brand names came to the fore.

David

[Graham G3ZVT]

As luck would have it, I bought a Prinz Magnon LV recently, it's the "single standard" (Super 8 only) version of your machine.
I was working on it yesterday.

The first thing you have to know is you must press here...

...as the leader loads. This creates a loop of film in the gate so the film can be "pulled down" to the next frame quickly, on each rotation of the three-bladed shutter.
You may have to press again if a bad splice goes through during operation.

Any questions? Just ask.

[louispompey]

Thanks Rambo.

I have a similar switch on my model so I shall try this tonight. I have managed to get it projecting an image sometimes but it seems as if I'm getting the bottom half of one frame and the top half of another. I can’t figure out what to do.

If I were to buy a restored projector could you recommend one based on ease of use and picture quality? There are do many on eBay, I don’t know what I need to be looking for.

[emeritus]

If you are getting the top part of one frame and the bottom part of another, either the framing adjuster is at one end of the adjustment range or you are using the wrong super 8/ standard 8 setting. Super 8 has the sprocket holes at the frame midpoints Standard 8 at the line between frames. In my dual gauge Eumig projector the gauge change control alters the position of the claw and introduces a smaller gate mask for the smaller standard 8 frame size.

[McMurdo]

accoding to the 'filmkorn' projector database, the Duo Convertible was made by Bell Ko-On Company, Japan.

https://www.filmkorn.org/super8data/...ors_dixons.htm

[cheerfulcharlie]

I wouldn't bother with it for the simple reason that those films of your granny
and family are more precious than a cheap old projector like a Prinz... and every time you try and fix it you are just mangling further what might be some valuable stuff to your family.

I think you should have the films transferred to digital-first before messing about the projector.

[Graham G3ZVT]

Originally Posted by emeritus

If you are getting the top part of one frame and the bottom part of another, either the framing adjuster is at one end of the adjustment range or you are using the wrong super 8/ standard 8 setting

Framing adjuster is circled in red.

[louispompey]

Thanks everyone for your help.

I've managed t0 fix the framing problem with the help you’ve provided but am still nervous about using this thing. I will definitely get them transferred to digital ASAP.

In the meantime, could anyone recommend an alternative projector? I think it's great when it’s all up and running well so would like to buy one I can be more confident in.

[cheerfulcharlie]

Here are a couple

Eumig was like the Ford Focus of the projector world ie. didn't do anything amazing but did a lot of things reasonably well -very popular and everyone knows them.

Elmo - was like a BMW M series, good performance, but can be complicated and difficult to find parts for.

Bolex was like the Morris Minor - a bit hard to find these days but mechanically very friendly and was as good as it's owner's care.

Well, something like that anyway....

[McMurdo]

Bear in mind these old films and projectors require rather more of the owner than a DVD or video tape. The projector must be clean and in good condition, the user must be familiar with the machine entirely, and the films must be in decent condition. Worn or torn sprocket holes or poor splicing/repairs can jam on even the best projector and in a few seconds the stuck frame will melt like in that scene from 'The Blob'.
The last projector I used for our precious family films was a 1980's Bolex 18/3 TC, (also sold under the Boots name); a pretty modern projector by 8mm standards and even so I always sat next to it with my hand on the lamp-off switch just in case.

You can generally tell the regard or derision bestowed on a projector by the amount they do or do not fetch on ebay.

Unless you enjoy the physical aspects of film projection (many do!!) then get them transferred.

[emeritus]

If I remember correctly, a 1970's article in the old "Movie Maker" magazine observed that, from their extensive experience in testing equipment for the extremely comprehensive new equipment reviews they used to publish, the only projectors that had lenses capable of resolving the grain of Kodachrome, generally acknowledged to be the sharpest film, were Bolex, Hertier (Som Berthiot lenses), Elmo, and later Eumig projectors made after about 1966, such as the Mark M, Mark S etc. Eumig had invested in a new computer that they had used to compute new lens designs that were markedly sharper than the older ones. I think some of the top Japanese makes (eg Canon) were good too, but they were expensive and not widely sold in the UK.

[Graham G3ZVT]

Here is a short clip to show what my Prinz is capable of.
It was projected onto an A3 paper screen and captured on a Sony Handycam with focus, exposure and white-balance set to manual.

https://youtu.be/Jhs6lYjf1FQ

My eye is critical enough to concede there are several aspects of this transfer that could be improved by a frame-by-frame scanning using "professional" equipment, but it's subjectively Good Enough in my opinion, and it's the result of what I've cobbled together which brings me a degree of satisfaction.

The daylight footage from that 120m reel looks even better.

As for the build quality of the Prinz projector, I would rate it as pretty solid, and seems to be quite gentle in the gate area where it matters. I've seen a lot worse.

My advice to Louis is to buy a random reel of film from Ebay to practice with and gain confidence.

[Tractorfan]

Hi,
Another thing to be aware of with film projectors is to keep the gate spotlessly clean. This is the part directly behind the lens that the film passes through during its actual projection.
At best, a 'hair' can be visible on the screen at the edge of the image.
At worst, a microscopic fragment of grit or similar can score 'tramlines' down the length of precious film. This damage cannot be repaired, and is often seen on old films shown on TV programmes about the history of cinema, and the like.
On 35mm cinema film, a scratch might hardly be noticeable. Slightly more so on 16mm stock. However, 8mm film would show scores & scratches very clearly indeed!
Cheers, Pete.

[Graham G3ZVT]

Originally Posted by Tractorfan

At worst, a microscopic fragment of grit or similar can score 'tramlines' down the length of precious film. This damage cannot be repaired, and is often seen on old films shown on TV programmes about the history of cinema, and the like.

The morons making these documentarys today are likely to electronically put flecks and tramlines on the vintage footage if it's not already present!

[AC/HL]

As with monochrome inserts to depict "olden days" in an otherwise normal programme, Joe Public expects to see this, and is duly catered for. It's showbiz folks!

[emeritus]

A professional phoographer told me that they used metal polish to remove/reduce scratches on the shiny sides of negatives. I did once treat 200' of scratched 8mm and it certainly considerably reduced the visibility of tramline scraches, but it was a tedious job. Professional cine film printers used a "wet gate" to deal with that sort of scratch. You couldn't do anything about emulsion side scratches before computer video processing technology. My pet beef is the flicker added to video to supposedly make it look like film. The flicker problem was solved in the Edwardian era by the use of multibladed shutters.

[phildil]

There are specific liquids available for cleaning and lubricating film stock. FilmGuard is one such product. One of the things it does is fill in the worst of the scratches on the base side of the film; those which appear as black lines. It should be applied sparingly by hand whilst the film is run through rewinds. At a pinch, I've *heard of* the use of Mr Sheen or furniture polish in its place but don't quote me on that