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Old 15th Mar 2019, 2:49 pm   #21
russell_w_b
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

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Certainly the possibility is there that when Windermere started it carried UHF 625 line TV as well as VHF/FM BBC National Radio.
In 1994 Windermere certainly carried UHF TV and it was fed with BBC from Winter Hill. ITV and Ch.4 which, along with Kendal, Coniston High Man, Kendal Fell and Hawkshead relays, were fed from Caldbeck, as the service carried Border TV!

No books discovered that go back to before 1994 but I'm still looking...
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 3:48 pm   #22
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

BTW: My feeling is that Windermere VHF/FM started in 1972/73; but I lack evidence, other than that of a memory of a UHF only TV that had been used elsewhere that could not be used there because of no signal.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 4:34 pm   #23
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

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BTW: My feeling is that Windermere VHF/FM started in 1972/73; but I lack evidence...
Have you contacted the Westmorland Gazette to see if there's anything in their archive? I've just had a bit look on CASCAT (Cumbria archive online) but nothing so far matches the search terms I've used.

It's the sort of thing that would be in the local paper.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 4:37 pm   #24
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Err, no Russell I have not. Although now you mention it Practical Television used to mention new relays - although if Windermere was VHF/FM only to start with then it would have to be Practical Wireless I suppose.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 4:50 pm   #25
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Try the Westmorland Gazette. Reception of clear wireless in the Windermere area would be a big thing back then and everyone would be talking about it! It's been over twenty-two years since I was out mobile with the BBC Transmitter Team, but one of the things we did was to pop into the local dealers occasionally for a cosy chat and to see if there'd been any problems.

There was a dealer in Ambleside but can't remember who it was. Maybe worth a Google to see if any still exist - there may be someone old enough to answer your question.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 4:56 pm   #26
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Russell,
My other half tried searching for the Westmorland Gazette on-line on the 'find my past' web-site but unfortunately it was not listed. I'll have a further rummage...
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 9:07 pm   #27
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

According to the BBC Year Books, which are all available online, Windermere's service date for UHF TV was 1971. VHF was in service in 1971. In 1970, no service of any sort emanated from Windermere.

So I would say 1971 is the date you are looking for. However... The 1972 volume claims that year as a service date, so perhaps the project over-ran?

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...k_Page_Key.htm
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 12:03 pm   #28
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Thank you for your efforts Russell.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 5:15 pm   #29
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Further information has been received from a third party as follows:
"I canít offer a precise service date for Windermere VHF/FM, but page 76 of the BBC Report and Accounts for 1971-72 mentions the opening of the Windermere station. So sometime during the year 1st April 1971 to 31st March 1972."
Relevant information is attached.
Best wishes
Guy

(with many thanks to the "two Martins" for their help)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf P2.pdf (74.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: pdf BBC EID 1034(9) 1968.08.pdf (467.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf BBC EID 1034 (22) 1973.01.pdf (594.0 KB, 9 views)
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 12:13 pm   #30
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

An update from me. I did some rummaging around and found two pocket sized transmitter lists from 1979 - one for the BBC and one for the IBA. The BBC did not give start dates, the IBA one gave a start date of 13th of April 1973 for Windermere carrying UHF Television.

Nyrod121's information is quite revealing - thank you for your efforts.

So is it really possible that Windermere started VHF/FM a year before UHF TV ?
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 4:05 pm   #31
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

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So is it really possible that Windermere started VHF/FM a year before UHF TV ?
I suppose the priorities afforded to providing good radio or good telly depended on what was available at the time. If viewers in Windermere could receive a decent 405 line signal from Morecambe bay or Winter Hill but only receive a rubbish VHF radio signal, then it would've been more important to provide a decent radio filler and stay with 405 Band I for a bit (no BBC2 of course).
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 1:39 pm   #32
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Russell,

Unfortunately for any prospective TV viewer the 405 line reception in Windermere was terrible for ITA and only somewhat better (Morecambe Bay Tx) for the BBC. UHF reception did not exist.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 2:02 pm   #33
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

I was on holiday in 1963 in Windermere, we went into a pub in the town and the TV was on. Cannot remember if BBC or ITA, the picture was terrible, lots of snow and some ghosting. The aerials on the roof were a 3 or 4 element band 1 and a large band 3 aerial.

It’s a long time ago but it has just stuck in my mind.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 2:09 pm   #34
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

This request is related to this post:

In my rummaging about I came across a 3 3/4 ips mono recording I made of a late night John Peel programme. it featured in listed sequence the artists

Spenser Wiggins
Thin Lizzy
Tangerine Dream (playing a track from their new LP, Phaedra)
Brindley Schwartz

If I could find the transmission date of this programme then it would answer for me some questions as to where it was recorded - ie in the Windermere service area or at another place I also went to about then.

I've tried looking on the web, but I have not found the 'right' web-site to answer my question! Any help please?
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 2:11 pm   #35
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Nuvistor,

Indeed, back then there were a lot of 4 el Telerection Channel 2 aerials about - all threatening to bring down the chimney stacks in high wind !
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 12:15 am   #36
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

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Tangerine Dream (playing a track from their new LP, Phaedra)
I think Phaedra was released in 1974, which might narrow your search window.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 9:20 am   #37
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

According to the transmission gallery (which generally seems accurate) the Windemere TX entered service in 1972, supposedly carrying both BBC1/2 and VHF-FM from the outset.
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallery...68&pageid=2060

Quote:
Windermere was originally a BBC landlord site with BBC national FM radio and BBC 1 & 2 entering service during 1972. ITV was added on 13th April 1973 and Channel 4 from June 1984. The UHF cylinder contains an east facing cardioid. DSO was on 24th June and 22nd July 2009.

BBC FM radio was re-engineered for mixed polarisation and Radio Cumbria was added in April 1986. Radio 1 was added on 11th March 1994.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 12:38 pm   #38
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Thanks all for the info. So it seems that ITV was indeed added later.

The last step for me is to establish when the John Peel Recording was made (the 'what', 'where', and 'when' question that niggles us all). I had found that Phaedra was nominally released on the 20th of Feb 1974, however as we all know, 'pre-release' versions crop up on the radio - presumably acting as a form of product advertising...
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 8:38 pm   #39
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Steve

This just in from another ex-BBC contact:

"My old copy of ‘Tristar’ gives the service date of Windermere LRA , VR2, VR3 and VR4 as 1st August 1971. It shows VR1 was added on 31st December 1995."

With thanks to 'Martin E' and 'Bruce M' for their help.

Guy

P.S.
'Tristar' was an in-house database - 'Transmitter Information Storage and Retrieval';
LRA = Radio Cumbria;
VR2 / 3 / 4 / 1 = Radios 2, 3, 4 and 1

Last edited by Nymrod121; 3rd Apr 2019 at 8:42 pm. Reason: Acknowledgements
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 1:07 pm   #40
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Default Re: Help with some FM Tx opening dates

Thank you for that Guy.
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