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Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment. |
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8th Jul 2018, 10:50 am | #21 |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Here's a book I have, the story of a Wireless Operator in Bomber Command -
'First Wave' by Kenneth Ballantyne, ISBN 978-0-9550601-6-8 Is it just me, or do others find it odd that someone starts this thread and asks a question, but then doesn't join in the discussion that ensues? Andy |
8th Jul 2018, 11:42 am | #22 | |
Nonode
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
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9th Jul 2018, 2:04 pm | #23 |
Dekatron
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Buried by the avalanche of suggestions, perhaps?
An acknowledgement is nice, even if that's the last post!
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9th Jul 2018, 3:03 pm | #24 |
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Whether the OP responds or not I have found this thread most interesting.
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9th Jul 2018, 3:16 pm | #25 | ||||||
Retired Dormant Member
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Thank you all, I haven't disappeared at all I've been working on raising the money to make the film and I'm a bit overwhelmed by the response, and intend to respond to everybody! Some really fascinating info, so many leads and its really exciting to know so many people are interested in the topic, I had no idea. Bob
Thank you Dave, I've heard that clip you mention and have read suggestions that because you can hear no engine noise it might be a propaganda clip issued by the war office, what do you think? I'm particularly focused on the internal conversations between the crew and messages with base and any other dialogue needed to fly a mission that the wireless op would have heard, in other words his entire audio experience of the flight. Look forward to what you find in your books. Bob Thank you, I link forward to hearing from them direct, if I don't I will get in touch myself, Thanks again, Bob Martin, Thank you! All the details help me build a timeline and this helps immensely, If you think of anything else Id be pleased to hear... Thanks again, Bob Sorry to hear about your father, luckily mine stayed around until 1993, but he would talk about it much which of course makes it all the more intriguing ! Bob Quote:
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9th Jul 2018, 5:51 pm | #26 | |||||
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
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9th Jul 2018, 6:29 pm | #27 | |
Tetrode
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Southport, Merseyside, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
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A most impressive beast. There was a long detailed article about WW2 bomber comm's in radio bygones mag, issue 159, spring 2016, sadly this mag has now ceased publication and has merged with the Radiophile mag as the owner/editor is in poor health. if you get in touch with radiophile they may have back numbers but there may be copyright issues depending on what you want to do with the info. regards Mike. |
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9th Jul 2018, 8:15 pm | #28 |
Nonode
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
I think I'm right that the article in the VMARS magazine mentioned in post #2 was a reprint of the article originally published in Radio Bygones.
'When the pilot was talking with other aircraft could this be heard by the rest of the crew?' is an interesting question. My first reaction is probably yes, because he only had one microphone (in his oxygen mask) and I don't think it could be switched between the TR9 (and successors) and the intercom system. But it warrants a closer look at the aircraft wiring diagram, including checking the way that the Plugboard Type 192 (mounted by the WOp) interconnects the two Comms Systems and the Intercom. Andy |
10th Jul 2018, 10:56 pm | #29 |
Heptode
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Hi
In my research on the Stirling I got to talk to Jim Coman DFC, a W/O who interestingly had been on over 30 sorties but stated that very little had happened to them - that's statistics for you I guess. Mind you, his story of being 'coned' and his pilot dropping to roof top height with the 'computer' controlled flak guns shooting off the roofs of the said houses was something to wonder at! He said that the communication with the ground was very clear and reliable - like talking on the telephone. Every 30 mins after take off he had to monitor a transmission from their airfield because the aircraft might be recalled. He stated that he would play the BBC broadcasts to the crew - just low enough that the crews voices would be louder - just in case. Part of his job was to broadcast a signal derived from a microphone in the inner engine nacelle so that he would deny that frequency to the Germans. The crew would use nick names or christian names on the intercom. All the microphones and earphones were common so that everyone heard everyone talking. I think that you had to switch your mic ON to talk and switch it off afterwards - you see crew doing just that on old films. The pilot did have another switch that he could let the crew listen to the Beam Approach signal - nice for them. I think that the W/O could connect his comms to the crew or keep them private. I think that he said that he operated the Fishpond equipment. He noted that the engines exhausts glowed brightly and would 'flame' frequently. He always wondered just how visible the aircraft were to the enemy. The Stirling had a very spindly undercarriage (a result of RAF bureaucracy demands for short take-off) which was prone to collapse on landing. Jim had to decant from his a/c on three such occasions. He said that they would often see a burning engine sliding past as they spun around on the airfield. Cheers James Last edited by jamesinnewcastl; 10th Jul 2018 at 11:09 pm. |
10th Jul 2018, 11:34 pm | #30 |
Heptode
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
I also collect real life stories so that I will be able to make an authentic documentary myself - here are some W/O sections:
The gunners and wireless operators went out to their aircraft to do their D.I.s (daily inspections); wireless operators had to change the two-volt batteries for the radio set. There were eleven of them to change, which was a problem of carrying eleven batteries out to the aircraft. Once the under carriage and flaps were up I went back to my wireless duties where I kept a listening watch on the group frequency in case of recall and switched off the IFF (identification friend or foe) 50 miles out from the English coast. As we approached the enemy coast the wireless operator's duties were to listen on frequencies he had been given at briefing and listen to German broadcast waiting to hear the word 'enda', which was the same as our word for 'over' at the end of a transmission. When we heard that word we had to back-tune our transmitters to that frequency and turn the transmitter to R/T (radio telephone). There was a microphone fitted in the port inner engine nacelle so when I switched to R/T it transmitted engine noise on that frequency and would hopefully interfere with the night fighters' instructions. I had to get a fix on the MF DF (medium frequency direction finding); this gave us our exact position at the time so we could then set a course for home base. I switched on the IFF (identification friend or foe) at 100 miles from the English coast then I could get QDNTs (a course to steer to reach base with zero wind) from our HF/DF (high frequency direction finding) at Newmarket. This brought us right over base where we made a good landing. OTU was almost entirely devoted to navigation practice. The w/op was fairly well occupied obtaining a quota of QDMs, loop bearings and radio fixes. we lost Gee which was our primary position finding device. The navigator called for a radio fix, but to transmit on medium frequency I had to reel out the trailing aerial which was 150 feet of wire; this was also located in the mid-fuse, near the reserve oil tank. The Loop Aerial, Radio Fixes and QDMs. These facilities were of no use over enemy territory, but could be useful for finding your way home in an emergency. The loop could give a bearing from a radio beacon, or allow the pilot to 'home' on it. To provide a radio fix, there were groups of three Direction Finding (DF) stations at a number of points over the British Isles. The w/op called the control station on Wireless Telegraphy (WT /Morse) requesting a fix,and the three DF stations each took a bearing on the aircraft's transmission. The outstations relayed their numbers to the control station by land line where the bearings were triangulated and the position was transmitted to the aircraft. There were DF stations spread over the whole of the British Isles from where the w/op could obtain a QDM by WT. Strictly speaking, QDM meant "Your course to fly to reach me is ...", but in practice they were mainly used as bearings - at least by BC aircraft. Finally, there was 'Darkie', which was raised on channel D of the TR 1196 - the pilot's Radio Telephony (RT/voice) HF set. This was a low powered channel with a very short range which was mainly used by fighters to ascertain their position. However, it did have the added use of receiving 'squeaker beacons' attached to 'friendly' barrage balloons to warn of their presence. There are a good many such stories on the internet - you just have to search for them really then draw out the operation sections which are fewer as the authors don't seem to talk a lot about their everyday 'jobs'. I also have a document which details how the pilot calls up ground stations if you are interested. Cheers James Cheers James |
11th Jul 2018, 7:28 am | #31 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Southeast Norfolk, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Re post #30:
I was recently given a TNA file on "Squeaker" beacons which, as James says, were used to roughly indicate that an a/c was close to the various UK balloon barrages. The file has the various (HF) frequencies listed and a technical manual for the ground beacons, they were NOT attached to the balloons but were set up close to the barrage. They did not emit an identification and so were not much use in finding the a/c posistion. Cheers Roger Last edited by G3VKM_Roger; 11th Jul 2018 at 7:28 am. Reason: wrong # |
11th Jul 2018, 7:26 pm | #32 |
Dekatron
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
I'm amazed that they bothered to use a microphone in an engine cowl to jam the enemy, there must be more easier ways to modulate the TX with noise.
Did they calculate on it having a psychological effect on the enemy?
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11th Jul 2018, 8:03 pm | #33 |
Nonode
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
I can see that it was a simple and cheap way to generate broadband noise with the technology of the day. Why do anything more complicated which would then have to be interfaced with the existing transmitter?
Doubtless nowadays it could be done with at least a dozen microprocessors...…………... |
11th Jul 2018, 8:39 pm | #34 |
Nonode
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
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11th Jul 2018, 9:54 pm | #35 |
Dekatron
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
For reference, the microphone-in-the-engine-bay noise-jammer was "Tinsel"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinsel_(codename) It was just a jammer: there were smarter approaches: "Operation Corona" initially used German-speaking RAF men flying in bomber-formations to impersonate German ground-controllers: the Germans responded to this by using female ground-controllers (thinking - quite rightly - that the Allies wouldn't put women up in aircraft) - the Allied approach was to use UK-ground-based German-speaking WAAFs with transmitters/antennas to beam their fake signals over Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Corona Photo shows R1155 and AR88... ! |
11th Jul 2018, 10:47 pm | #36 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Colchester, Essex, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
More code names for you- Monica and Village Inn. Luftwaffe nightfighters discovered the Monica tail warning emissions rather quickly, and used them to home in... she was quickly dumped.
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11th Jul 2018, 11:23 pm | #37 |
Tetrode
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Shetland, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
http://cdn.justflight.com/support/La...ualwithMos.pdf
I hope this is of some help. ... Cecil ...GM0EKM. |
12th Jul 2018, 12:43 am | #38 | |
Dekatron
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
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Fishpond sounds interesting to the point of fascinating- apparently, the first H2S operators would sometimes notice fleeting returns on their displays from aircraft in the vicinity (there was of course a good chance of them being hostile), so it was realised that the normally blanked signal before first ground return after the transmitted pulse was a potentially very valuable source of warning information and worth developing a separate display for. It was said that bomber crews were sometimes aghast and horrified at just how visible the exhaust flares were when they fortuitously encountered other aircraft in the stream. Suppressor manifolding and overall shields were apparently developed, but someone calculated that they would add to weight and detract from performance sufficiently to mean more bombers would be needed for the same overall load and that the inevitable higher losses would cancel the advantages gained from fitting exhaust shielding in the first place. All very well for someone firmly ground-based to say, I suppose.... I used to live near Lossiemouth, where Shackletons (essentially the grandson of the Lancaster by way of the Lincoln) were based until the early 'nineties, when these flew low overhead in anything darker than twilight, the eight exhaust stacks were strikingly prominent as bright orange streaks. |
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12th Jul 2018, 11:59 am | #39 | ||||
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Thanks Andy, a good lead I can follow up, I appreciate it. Bob
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12th Jul 2018, 5:50 pm | #40 |
Heptode
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Radio signals and communications.
Hi Bob
Turns out that I may have a lot more than I thought - sady it's all formal stuff and not necessarily what the W/O might actually do in practice but here are some extracts from various documents for the interest of people reading the thread. IM me with your email address (and anyone else interested) and I'll mail you the documents in return. AP 3024 - Flying Control in the RAF (rather oddly undated but would be WW2) |