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Old 21st Dec 2012, 9:30 pm   #21
mark pirate
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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Our 22 inch Beovision 7700 has excellent performance and I can fix it if it needs fixing.
While I agree that sets of that era are much easier to service, none of the LCD sets I have recently repaired took much work to put right, I just wish I had good eyesight, as the components are so tiny, it is hard to tell them apart!

I can understand why people just buy another TV, they are so cheap now, and the cost of the repair (if you can find a repairer) seals the deal.

In reality, with a little know how, these discarded sets can be bought back to life quite cheaply, sometimes it's a couple of quids worth of caps, or if more serious, like the inverter or power boards, these can usually sourced from online auction sites for around £25 inc delivery.

The Bush set I picked up today was indeed a PSU fault, there are a few domed caps to replace, subject to having the correct caps, I will hopefully fix it tomorrow.

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Old 21st Dec 2012, 9:50 pm   #22
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

earlier this year I had a lovely white 40" siemens lcd set in, the no picture fault was the surface mount fuse on the timing control board. Anyway, fixed the set in about 20 mintes, 15 of which to get the thing apart, called the guy and I said I wouldn't charge him as I was being paid for that day by his employer. He said to keep the set as it had no freeview or hdmi (although dvi) so it's on my bench connected to a freeview box and I use it myself. This tv cost him nearly £2000 when new and he just threw it away when it failed 3 years later.

The problem is what to do with unwanted sets, I end up keeping them for a bit until something better comes along. I fear this siemens thing will be with me for a long time.
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Old 21st Dec 2012, 11:28 pm   #23
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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This tv cost him nearly £2000 when new and he just threw it away when it failed 3 years later.
It's nuts, isn't it. I was born in 1970 to shouts of 'well, are you coming out or going in - don't stand there letting the cold air in' - and serious parsimony rubbed off on me, as those who recently held my hand through the repair of our 17 yr old CRT telly must have guessed.

I guess my neighbours' penchant for all things new is good in a way, as it saves me from the 'paradox of thrift' which Keynes implies would follow if everyone was as tight as me...
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 12:08 am   #24
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The other problem is that you may spend a lot of time and care repairing modern equipment, setting it up correctly and checking everything just to discover that it inexplicably breaks down again a few weeks later.
What do you do? Your customer is not happy and will not pay any further repair bills. [understandably] Just too much hassle, no manufacturers back up, no circuit, unwieldy monster pile of junk and a customer that does not really want it repaired in the first place. Life is too short! John.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 3:50 am   #25
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The era of cheap stuff is going to come to an abrupt end sooner or later. Fuel costs are going up, and cheap labour isn't going to last forever as workers begin to demand better wages and conditions. Field-maintainability will become an increasingly important consideration when a new set carries a 4-digit price tag.

Of course, it will be the poorest who will be hit the hardest, as appliances designed to be field-maintainable will inevitably have a higher initial purchase cost.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 3:59 am   #26
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Prices from the far east are climbing now.
Even washing machines are starting to be board level repairable.
Other stuff will go the same way once disposal becomes an issue and also the energy used in production will add to this.
DVD players are a joke and most cheap ones make good CD/MP3 players too.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 9:50 am   #27
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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Of course, it will be the poorest who will be hit the hardest, as appliances designed to be field-maintainable will inevitably have a higher initial purchase cost.
Some years ago (quite a lot!) I needed a toaster. I visited the electrical section of the local department store to make enquiries. I was offered one at £15 but this was effectively unrepairable if the element failed. I asked about a model which could have the element replaced and was offered one at £30. 'How much are the replacement elements?' I asked. '£15' I was told.

My £15 toaster provided good service for several years before it finally failed and went to landfill.

Last edited by Brased; 22nd Dec 2012 at 9:58 am.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 10:59 am   #28
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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Sadly, toasters and kettles now seem to last only 5-10 years before some small but crucial part fails.
I can't remember a kettle lasting anything like 5 years! Maybe it's the hard water here, or maybe it's because I normally only fill to the minimum line for one cup of tea, but plastic ones seem to start leaking after a year or so. Stainless steel ones do somewhat better, usually 2-3 years before the automatic shut-off stops working and they fill the kitchen with steam.

I normally get supermarket own brand stainless steel cordless ones as there seems to be no difference between them and the well known brands (apart from price).
I have a plastic kettle by Bodum that has so far lasted 12 years ! The main reason for choosing it was the design, product design is an interest of mine and this was aestheticaly pleasing and ergonomically good. The only problem so far is the edge of the handle has broken off but it's still safe to use.
Ironically I bought a new Bodum about 4 years ago and it became faulty within 6 months ! Just a leak from the bottom of the water gauge but I can't find a tool to remove the special screws that hold the base on, which would almost certainly allow it to be repaired.
Fortunately I had kept the first one as a standby so it was put back into service !
One thing that really narks me is the pricing of modern tech products. Take the iphone 5, and other smart phones, £400 to £500 to buy off contract, and yet a 42" lcd tv, or even a well spec'd laptop can be bought for much less !! And iphone victims will Q for days when a new version is released, just to be 1st or amongst the first to own one !
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 11:13 am   #29
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I remember a non cordless Molinix kettle they had at work. It leaked from the level window.
Some years later I was given a cordless version FOC and it started leaking and went bang at 4am.
When I looked it it there was a little cover with a hole for the water to get out onto the base.
I wonder how they got away with selling this junk. They had clearly bodged it with the little hole.

When I buy one now I check to make sure there is no hole or trim to stop me checking.
I know this means I have to go to a store that displays them to see the shapes and so on but this allows me to get one with a different badge from a discount store.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 11:22 am   #30
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The saddest thing for me, is the waste created by these cheap & nasty appliances.

My parents always bought Bush products, our T57 405 line console TV lasted 17 years without ever going wrong, we also had a TV85, inherited when my gran died in 1963, this also ran trouble free, and was still working well when given to my fathers mother in 1975.

Other appliances I remember were the Fridgadaire bought in 1955, this was finally killed by me in the early 80's while defrosting with a sharp knife

The same longevity also applied to our Hoover Junior, Kenwood food mixer and Hotpoint twin tub.

I think that is one of the attractions of vintage equipment, it was built to last, is usually easy to repair, and still very usable today.

It is such a shame that all these quality names are now put on cheap Chinese tat.

Mark
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 11:36 am   #31
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Oh the Kenwood 701A.
We had one that had been round the world with the army.
The gearbox had so much wear where the mincer fits in that it needed something done about it.
There was only one gearbox on auction and many old battered machines with expensive postage. Then out of nowhere one stood out. It was collect only with about 8 miles round trip.
It was a little more pricy but had been a wedding present from new and looked like it had only been displayed when the relative that bought it visited. It came our way and was in mint condition.
The old one still has a good motor and is being converted into a transformer winder.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 12:58 pm   #32
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The switch mode PSU is often the culprit and its all too easy to blame the electrolytic capacitor quality but I suspect they are often operating beyond their design limits. The very simple designs using schottky rectified secondaries must deliver sizeable peak currents. I wonder if they bother doing the calculations?
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 2:48 pm   #33
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quality names are now put on cheap Chinese tat
Cheap tat can come from anywhere, I have found some Chinese stuff is quite good. When I 'upgrade' stuff the old one is put on the front step with a note saying 'working, please help yourself', they usually go in less than an hour. Once an Indian chap took a TV and returned with a curry, it was delicious.
 
Old 22nd Dec 2012, 3:04 pm   #34
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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The very simple designs using schottky rectified secondaries must deliver sizeable peak currents. I wonder if they bother doing the calculations?
It's not so much the peak current that's the problem as the ripple current, which is, by design, large and at high frequency. The peak current isn't actually very high, since its rate of rise is limited by the winding inductance in a typical small flyback-topology switch-mode power supply. The output (and input) capacitors in any switching power supply have a very tough job. I honestly don't believe that modern cheap electrolytics are worse than cheap electrolytics always were, it's just that we're asking them to work a lot harder so they fail sooner.

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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 3:13 pm   #35
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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One thing that really narks me is the pricing of modern tech products. Take the iphone 5, and other smart phones, £400 to £500 to buy off contract, and yet a 42" lcd tv, or even a well spec'd laptop can be bought for much less !! And iphone victims will Q for days when a new version is released, just to be 1st or amongst the first to own one !
Agree but smart phones are cult 'must have' items that consumers will pay any price for. Even if they were £1500 these idiots would still queue for a mile around the shop selling them to be the first to own one. I think the manufacturers should charge double for these toys and make a bit of money while the sun shines..

The same could be said for round Ekco radios, Philco Peoples sets, Dansette record players and TV22 television receivers. All over priced but plenty of willing customers. John.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 7:52 pm   #36
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

The kettle problem was solved for me by forsaking the domestic market - all seemed to be (mostly dubious) style over substance and cheapness over true economy - for the commercial: http://www.shop-equip.com/burco-7700...ng-kettle.html is a joy to use, doesn't make a racket unlike every plastic jug I've met, and I see no reason why it shouldn't last as long as my Russell Hobbs K2, which didn't fail but looked very sorry for itself (copper plating much the worse for wear) and is staying around as a standby.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 10:11 pm   #37
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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I have found some Chinese stuff is quite good.
Absolutely. Stretching the thread a tad OT but I have just bought a Chinese airbrush outfit and it is exceptionally well made. All for just over £100 including the compressor.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 12:21 am   #38
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Moving the thread back towards where it started my Quad CDP2 is a joy to use and to listen to too and it was made entirely in China. As were my Quad II Classic amps, and they're very nice as well .

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 9:22 am   #39
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Chinese made equipment is extremely variable. The better organisations out there are capable of producing excellent quality equipment, but there is also some shocking (and dangerous) rubbish made there as well. You are on a safe bet when buying from a reliable company, as they will be using the better facilities out there and take the effort to ensure that QA is maintained to protect their good name.

There is definitely a change beginning to occur thought. The better operators in China are no longer as cheap as they were and some Western companies are shifting production back out of China. At the other end of the spectrum the cheap and dire unknown / unbranded rubbish is still polluting eBay and the likes and best avoided if they require inserting into a mains socket!
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 1:00 pm   #40
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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I got a couple of non working LCD monitors for 99p each (I was the only bidder on a local collection item) I'm using one of them now, it was as above two failed capacitors.
The other one, though, uses multiple capacitors in parallel, presumably to offset the effects of failure.
My best free pickup of 2012 was a Pure Avanti Flow DAB/Internet radio, about £250 new, given to me by a work colleague, with all four electrolytics on the secondary side of the SMPS bulging and u/s. Replaced these and radio is now fine. Very nice to have (another) freebie like this, but this two year lifespan for consumer electronics is really not good enough. The original owner took it back where he bought it from and complained, but they were not interested in repairing it at all, in the end, as a "goodwill measure" they gave him some kind of discount on a new replacement.
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