S video tape for video 2000 or Betamax

[simpsons]

I'm lucky enough to have both a B&O video 2000 (model V8800)and Philips VR2023 machines which are still working. Also, a number of Sony Beatamax models.

The picture quality on both formats is as expected given the technical design and tape formulation and this brings me to the question. Can I use SVHS tape formulation and would it work on both formats and would the video noise be noticeably reduced?

If not, is there a video tape make/product which, when wound onto the correct cassette, would do so?

Chris

[ben]

I doubt you'd gain any benefit, not worth the expense. S-VHS records luma and chroma at different 'depths' of the tape, but your machines will not. So there's nothign to be gained form using the high grade tape as you're limited by the machines and their bandwidth. Ordinary VHS tape of later production (late 1990s on) would be suitable - it had better signal to noise characteristics compared to the early tape formulations, IIRC.

[whaka54]

it's hi-fi that use depth of the tape.
chroma is recorded exactly the same way as vhs, as nothing was improved on that.
and after all, chroma/luma are still recorded with the same heads.

worth a try i would say, but nothing really magical to expect.

[simpsons]

Thank you both for your comment on my video tape idea.

As it so happens, an American has already done so with VHS tape. See :-

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/VHS/vhs.html

The results, show BASF Pro as the best product both in terms of resolution and low noise. In addition, it is said that duplication houses used either BASF or 3M video tape for reliability.

Another review reported that whilst chromium dioxide tape scores in absolute terms, it is less stable than oxide-based products.

There you go. Discuss!!

Chris

[Welsh Anorak]

I would be a bit cautious about the wear these different tapes might cause to the heads, being as they were designed for standard tapes.

[simpsons]

Hi Glyn

The video 2000 cassette design included tape formulation recognition, Viz oxide or chrome and maybe others TBA.

Video Choice guide to buying video recorders included a section on videocassettes that showed the luminance noise and drop out by manufacturer.

44dB luminance output was the best available at the time, '81, with only Maxell HG T120 and TDK HG T120 tapes meeting that specification. Me thinks TDK made Maxell tapes.

On the reverse of branded tape boxes, some additional information is shown such as with Sony. On their T120 Pro tapes, they say that a sharper picture will be seen as the tape magnetic energy is 1850 gauss or, should you have a better grasp of the technical terms used, Br185 is quoted.

JVC say that their professional video tape "stands alone" without saying why. help!!

Scotch Pro camera tape is said to have +2dB output v EG tapes and a thumping 7 dB above the VHS reference and TDK Super Avilyn 9 dB.

At the other end of the scale, Secure Image professional tapes recommend that their tape is replaced after 12 views.

Enough from me.

Chris

[vidjoman]

The tapes with a T are meant for the North American market with the tape actually running at a faster speed. The European tapes were marked as E120/180 etc. I remember that during the 'Great Tape Shortage' in the early 80's some importers brought in some T120 tapes and they would last about 2H30min on a European recorder.

[Nickthedentist]

I never knew that!

[RobustReviews]

Interesting question.

Also as clarification of the post above, PAL/NTSC VHS and PAL Betamax use depth multiplexing - S-VHS is just a shifted and broadened luminescence component, there's no depth multiplexing there. S-VHS is kinda good, probably gives U-Matic HiBand a run for it's money in reproduction terms but once you add in HiFi sound all editing flexibility is lost which didn't endear it to any but the very lowliest production firms.

I'm not an expert; but I have spent the last two years researching a "Format War" documentary which I'll put out in the Spring, it runs to over two hours at the moment so needs some serious editing. A few interviews and lots of in-depth research (shameless plug - I'll make another once it's out!).

Anyway, for VHS many of the later machines could produce a quazi-S-VHS playback and many of those models shared heads with the lower models - I don't *think* you'll cause any dramas for the heads, especially for short term use but also a high quality conventional tape is probably in order.

V2000 tape is a different beast entirely, it's a heavily chromed stock and actually was the biggest issue Philips faced at the start of the format. Du Pont had to come onside to help them as the tape plant in the Netherlands couldn't get the stuff to work to the point there the whole format was a serious gamble - Du Pont really did have to bring some technological advancements right at the last moment as the Philips/BASF factories were struggling with the formulation.

V2000 relies on the very "quiet" and magnetically sensitive FeCr formula combined with the DTF to be able to record on essentially half the area of the rival 1/2" domestic systems.

Feel free to experiment, but I think V2000 won't like anything except V2000 tape - that said later VHS formulations with cobalt doping etc might respond fine. Recall that FeCr tape stock is generally very easily saturated, other formulations might need totally different head bias and recording levels outside of what the deck expects.... Maybe? Like I said, I'm only taking guesses here.

You can hear the quieter stock on linear V2000 audio, it's noticeably less hiss inclined in my experiments than contemporary VHS/Betamax linear audio. Both of the Japanese systems blew it away though once they introduced the broadband HiFi systems.

I'm not a tape formulation chemist, this is just stuff I've picked up and as a casual enthusiast have paid attention to.

[whaka54]

Originally Posted by simpsons

The video 2000 cassette design included tape formulation recognition, Viz oxide or chrome and maybe others TBA.

are you really sure? i never saw anything on schematics related to that.
it does tape presence and duration recognition, but no special type coding.
it used exactly the same chrome or ferro-cobalt doped formulations, like VHS/beta.

[RobustReviews]

Originally Posted by whaka54

are you really sure? i never saw anything on schematics related to that.
it does tape presence and duration recognition, but no special type coding.
it used exactly the same chrome or ferro-cobalt doped formulations, like VHS/beta.

I've never seen anything on V2000 that suggests it has formulation detection - Only machines I've personally seen with that are Betacam SP machines - some won't accept Betacam recordings and detect that also stopping dead all attempts to use a Betamax cassette in some series.


I don't *think* the formulation is the same, but again I'm just a guy on the internet - I could have well misunderstood some things. I'm fairly sure V2000 relied on FeCr at the start (before the better chemistry formulations were developed) but I'm happy to learn.

In the crudest sense, Betamax and VHS are "more similar than they are different" at their fundamental level, they both use near identical technology and work almost identically at an electronics level with exception of the obvious differences. I'm sure tape-stock could be interchanged or was in essence "the same."

[TonyDuell]

I think the V2000 system did have the facilty to detect the tape type but I've yet to see a machine where it was used.

There were several (3?) switches under the front edge of the cassette One was used for record inhibit. The other 2 were used to indicate the tape type, neither operated -> no cassette present. That seems to be the only condition detected in the machines/service manuals that I have but it is implied that the other combinations could be used to specify the tape type

[whaka54]

maybe they used ferrochrome at some point could be very possible, as video recording didn't really need biasing as it was FM (except for linear audio, of course).

i think the crucial point on V2000 to improve S/N ratio was particles density more than the formulation itself.
particles density was the keypoint which make the difference between "standard grade" and "extra high grade" but they can be based on the same kind of formulation.

[RobustReviews]

Originally Posted by whaka54

maybe they used ferrochrome at some point could be very possible, as video recording didn't really need biasing as it was FM (except for linear audio, of course)..

Thanks for correcting that - you’re right.

If I’d have thought about that for another second or two…

[TIMTAPE]

ISTR Chrome had better HF specs, Ferric better at LF's, but the dual layer construction was costly to make. Re TDK and Maxwell being the same company, never heard of that. Maxell made Hitachi labelled tapes though.

[Maarten]

I wouldn't expect to read anything about tape formulation in a service manual, as Philips redacted those to closely meet the supposed needs of the repairmen at the time. There might have been something in a service course or general description.

[simpsons]

How interesting this post has become highlighting the technical challenges in video tape manufacturer. First meeting the goals brought about by Sony in reducing their Betamax tape speed to compete with VHS in the US market and then the market for lower noise video recording generally so that the monster TV's over at Uncle Sam looked half decent.

What clouds the conversation is that whilst improvements in audio tape formulation had to meet or actually introduced new standards for equalisation that all cassette recorder manufacturers soon equipped their machines to record and playback on, videotape was closely patented to exclude rivals.

An article on tape formulas by ReeltoReel.nl explains in some detail, the chemical formula et al in the development of audio tape and also referenced BASF CK 50-21 chrome for video.

Chris

[RobustReviews]

I can’t be certain, as I only have one reference to it but the very first VHS system demonstrated in the US may have actually ran at double speed. Unlike Beta-I it was never marketed but I have found reference to 1-hour vs 2-hour VHS quality in 1975 at a pre-launch demonstration.

All machines that made it to market were initially offered with 2-hour tapes Stateside so it would suggest nascent VHS also had a fast speed.

The Format War was messy and complicated, I’ve done a lot of research in to it - it’s let me down some very deep rabbit holes and left me with more questions than answers. I’ll stop now otherwise I’ll bore on about the Formar War but only mentioned in passing with reference to the B-I/B-II speeds.

Tape stock is also messy and complicated as you say - and there was a lot of corporate “gate keeping”!

[Graham G3ZVT]

Originally Posted by whaka54

maybe they used ferrochrome at some point could be very possible, as video recording didn't really need biasing as it was FM

The amplitude of the FM carrier WAS the bias adjustment, and I spent many an hour making recordings of blacks & syncs at different levels to find out which one resulted in the least noise when played back, for a given tape formulation.

[simpsons]

Graham

How interesting.

Would you be able to share your findings?

Chris