Advice on scraping a curved cabinet

[Aerodyne]

I'm sure you are right about the two tones of finish, Phil. It shouldn't be a problem to replicate. Also I suspect that you are right in thinking the veneer isn't Mahogany. Much Mahogany has an interlocked grain - effectively, grain tends to run in reverse directions here and there, making sanding and finishing to a high gloss quite tricky - and as far as I can see from your photos, the grain is fairly even. It could be walnut but there are numerous hardwoods of a similar colour and grain.
As an aside, it may be that the oft-used term 'Walnut cabinet' was a catch-all. Nowadays we'd have to say 'Walnut effect' or the thought police (trading standards) would be on our trail.
-Tony

[Phil G4SPZ]

Hi Tony,

Trawling the internet, I found the attached pictures. The first seems to be about the nicest and most natural colour for the 634A. This is from an auctioneer's website and the set pictured is described as original, although something looks wrong with the grille cloth. The second is a browner Walnut colour which I don't like as much. I wonder what you think?

Whilst writing, can I ask how you would advise me to deal with the dark painted joints between the front panel and the top and sides, and the feet? In the past, when using Danish oils, I have simply mixed Humbrol brown and black enamels to match the original finish, and applied it by brush after refinishing the cabinet. But with this particular set, I don't want any interaction between the aerosol toner lacquer (presumably cellulose) and the enamel paint. Also, I could possibly treat the dark joints prior to spraying, which could avoid a lot of masking.

Any suggestions welcome! Many thanks,

Phil

[David G4EBT]

From the pictures of the grain pattern in your own pictures, and the image on the left, it's almost certainly not walnut. The grain is uninteresting and lacks character, and my best guess is that it would have been standard birch-faced ply, finished to look like walnut in colour, albeit not the grain pattern of walnut. I'm not decrying the original cabinet - the end result isn't unpleasing, but it's my guess that the veneer was that of the ply when it left the producer, and will have been steamed to shape and finished with no additional veneer. The grain pattern in the second picture has the characteristics of walnut, and in my view, has probably been re-veneered on top of the original ply, thus 'gilding the lily' so to speak.

As to the dark painted 'corners' I think you'd have to do a test on a piece of scrap to be sure that the paint won't react with the lacquer, and you might fare better with acrylic pain, which is water based. It looks like satin black to me, as best I can tell. I don't know if you have a Model Zone shop near you, but they stock the whole Humbrol and Revell ranges and I think you're sure to get something to your liking.

Hope that helps a bit.

Good luck with the cabinet Phil - you're obviously proceeding with caution, intent of making a proper job of it, as the set deserves.

As an aside, from the pics I've seen of these radios - which are, after all, close to 80 years old - time hasn't been kind to them. Those whose hands they have passed through have - with varying degrees of skill - had the irresistible urge to strip the cabinet and refinish it. Most seem to have decided that re-creating the banding is beyond their skill level, so have removed it and not attempted to re-create it. Some I guess, will have had the Danish oil treatment, which is irrevocable, as it soaks into the cabinet then cures, whereas lacquer sits on the surface, which is why - over time, it flakes off.

When I first saw one in the flesh, I was surprised at how large they are. I think my views were coloured by having seen the solid state replica ones that were around for a time in the 1980s. That was the time when the original set was popularised in 1980s Ovaltine TV advert,and given the nickname the 'Ovaltinie' which I guess the reproduction sets capitalised on.


David

[PJL]

I wouldn't get too wound up about this. As well as the tint, stain would have been applied to bring out the grain which has now faded. It would have had a high gloss finish and looked very 'bling' in it's original guise.

When you have removed the old yellowed varnish, wiping over with white spirit will give you a rough idea what it will look like with a clear coat.

[Aerodyne]

If David is correct in his assumption - and I suspect he may well be - that the grain visible on the cabinet is toned Birch ply, then you will need a fairly good layer of toner to cover the rather greyish/white wood. Two ways of attacking the edge joints and feet occur to me: either mask and spray the corners with suitable aerosol paint as a first step, remove the masking and gently level the hard paint edges (after a good time allowance for hardening) then mask and dark tone the 'bandings', finally tone and spray the entire cabinet, finishing with a few coats of clear lacquer.
OR
finish the entire cabinet - toning, banding - before applying paint to the edges and feet by hand with masking.
Of the two, I'd opt for aerosol all the way. I don't like mixing two forms of finish - enamel by brush, lacquer by aerosol - but that's just me.
-Tony

[David G4EBT]

As a matter of interest - not that it's of any great relevance - I've asked a friend whose knowledge of timber is far more extensive than mine, what he thinks the veneer is. He's fairly sure that it's Luan - a cheap type of mahogany used extensively for plywood facing, but whether that was the case in the early 1930s is anyone's guess. Apparently it's used extensively these days for dolls houses as it’s quite soft and stamps out easily on die presses, and among other things, is also used in making kayaks. If you look at the sample at the link below it does look very much like the grain in the fourth pic in Phil’s post #20 in this thread:

http://www.insidewoodworking.com/luanplywood.html

One thing we can be sure of - it's definitely tree wood

David

[PJL]

The front is clearly book matched veneering so definitely applied.

[Phil G4SPZ]

Thanks chaps for all your interest and helpful comments. The 1933-1934 era was a period of austerity, so it's logical that Philips would have used the cheapest materials available commensurate with acceptable appearance. It's testament to their attention to detail and build quality that the cabinet itself is still in perfectly sound physical condition today.

I will indeed practice on some plain plywood with spray toners and Humbrol before attacking the cabinet itself. I'm minded to follow Tony's advice and stick to aerosols; in the spirit of self-training, I might become a little more competent in spraying techniques along the way!

FWIW, I've protected and masked off the speaker fabric on both sides with stiff cardboard, rather than removing it. It is original and clean, and held in place with a ring of flat springy metal pushed into a narrow circular groove in the rear face of the front panel. The manufacturing technique then apparently involved trimming away the excess material outside the metal ring. If removed now, replacement would be nigh-on impossible.

I've also found a nice site here http://www.***********/photos/47244045@N08/4370303488/ with lots of images of a 634A restoration in progress. Whilst I'll do my best with the cabinet, I can assure you that my chassis will not look anywhere near as good as the one on the photos! It works fine, though. Life's too short...

Finally, my wife has been following this restoration with something approaching interest, and she has tentatively agreed that, when finished, the 634A could replace the Bush AC91 in the lounge! So yes, David, the Philips is a large set, but it will make a good talking point...

Phil

[David G4EBT]

What a fine example! The pics are excellent, and his other restorartions.

His cabinet certainly has bookmarked walnut veneer applied to the front, which looks original. The veneer around the curved top appears to be in strips. Maybe during the sets production run, Philips changed materials, and also, may actually have bought in the cabinets from other suppliers whos materials varied, but so long as there was a measure of conformity, some variation was permissible? Pure speculation on my part.

I've had a stab at translating the text about finishing the cabinet, to see if there are any clues as to what he used for the dark bands. He said he used 'dye made from nut husks' which doesn't give much of a clue. He finished the cabinet with shellac (French polish).

Here's what he wrote (more or less!):

'Once the wood was put in white [stripped], I had to recreate the two bands of darker colours which characterise this superb cabinetwork. The width of the bands is 55mm and to limit this width, I applied a double thickness of masking tape as a security measure. I carried out an initial test on a board to be sure that the dye I used for the banding reacted correctly with the shellac. It’s my first experiment in implementing two colours, and I prefer not to take risks, and to ensure compatibility of the two colours. I used dye from nut husks applied in two passes, which were sufficient. At the moment, these bands are matt, but after applying shellac to the cabinet, on completion, should take on the attractive brilliance of my test board'. [Not wrong there then!]

He says he applied the dye with 'a plug' which I take to mean a cotton pad as used as a French polish rubber.

Hope that helps a bit.

Certainly a good benchmark to aim for Phil!

(His little stripboard banks of caps for re-stuffing looked very neat).

Your comments about the1930 period of austerity during the depression years is certainly true, and the same applied to the 1940s to early 1950s. The 'utility' furniture produce in that era was very skillfully designed and constructed, and made to last. I've often stripped it down to reclaim the materials. The carcasses were mostly oak, and the ply is excellent - generally oak veneered. The drawers were machine dovetailed and the hide glue joints are as firm as the day they were made.

Looking forward to seeing the end results in due course Phil!

David

[Aerodyne]

Personally I would never attempt to use a spirit dye on masked-off stripped wood as creep would almost certainly spoil the crispness of the masked edge. I'd stick to using toner spray, as outlined earlier.
I'd be surprised if the veneer was Luan - the stuff is better covered with paint IMHO but with Philips, one never knows for sure! There were and still are many similar hardwood 'substitute' veneers that look a bit mahogany-ish or walnut-ish.

The loudspeaker mounting technique was used by Philips on other sets. I recall refitting after cleaning the cloth on one such model and with a bit of fiddling I achieved good tension on the cloth, though I'll admit to it being a problem and if it isn't essential to remove it, you are right, Phil - leave it well alone.
-Tony

[Phil G4SPZ]

Thanks David for the translation. You got further than I did! Yes, I take Tony's point about stain creep, and looking at my stripped cabinet I can see that creep would definitely happen if stain were to be used. I've just chased up Restoration Materials for guidance on the Morrells spray toner colour range. I agree that the top veneer appears to have been applied in strips each a few inches wide.

There's a recipe for a dark walnut stain made from nut husks here: http://basketmakers.org/topics/tutorials/walnutdye.htm

I agree that the French guy's restoration looks impeccable, and puts me to shame, although I don't think his speaker cloth is original. Mine is original, and fortunately it's in excellent condition with no damage or nicotine staining either, which is why I've chosen to protect it rather than remove it! I certainly haven't done anywhere near as much on the chassis, limiting my work to restoring it to operation and maintaining its original appearance from above. However, I hope by following everyone's advice to get equally good results on the cabinet once the weather improves later this spring.

[Phil G4SPZ]

If the moderators would prefer this discussion to continue by PM, then please advise...

Tony, I'm having some difficulty identifying the right colour of tinted cellulose spray lacquer from the Morrells range. It seems that Morrells do the full RAL range of colours, but only supply in minimum batches of 12 cans! The colours stocked by Restoration Materials are: Clear; Dark Mahogany; Teak; Walnut; Dark Oak; Light Oak.

From your experience, what would you recommend? From your previous comments, perhaps "clear" and "dark oak" in gloss finish would be the ones to go for.

Regards,

[Aerodyne]

I'd certainly go for the toner 'Dark Oak', using it for the dark bandings. I would not use Teak for anything. Dark Mahogany tends to be reddish but can be used IN COMBINATION with Dark Oak - alternate passes with the aerosols - when it does have the effect of warming the rather cold Dark Oak. As for Light Oak, I have never used it but perhaps it would work as an overall toning coat if needed, not too many coats though.
Remember that clear lacquer is just that - clear - and so the colour of the wood, plus any blemishes, will remain, though enhanced by the gloss of course, which is why an overall toning coat might be needed.
Experiment a little with the distance between aerosol and cabinet. Too close and you will run the risk of pooling on flat surfaces, curtaining on verticals. Too far back and you will end up with an orange-peel effect due to the partial drying out of the lacquer on its passage through the air.
Read the instructions on the can, work in a dry, warm atmosphere, spray on flat horizontal surfaces and WARM THE CANS BEFORE USE by standing in a bowl of hot water. This makes all the difference in the smooth exit of the lacquer from the nozzle. Light coats, allow a little drying time - a few minutes at most - before recoating and don't rush. Rome wasn't built in a day. You may find that the nozzles on the cans allow for a useful broad sweep of spray rather than the conventional 'round' pattern.
Good luck.
-Tony

[Phil G4SPZ]

Tony, that's very helpful, thank you very much. I think my requirements are clear now; 1 can of Dark Oak and 1 can of Dark Mahogany, to be applied alternately to recreate the dark bands, and two cans of Clear, to be applied first then following the toning. And a can of black gloss too, for the feet and the joint between front and top/sides. I'll order it all, in gloss finish, tomorrow.

I plan to wait till the weather warms up and the days get a bit longer before tackling the actual spraying. I'm actually looking forward to this job now, thanks to your advice!

Mods, this thread has probably run its course now, thanks to everyone's help. If you'd like to close it, I will start a new thread (or maybe even a Success Story if things go well) at an appropriate time.

Phil

[Aerodyne]

One last but important point, so as to be sure: always finish with clear coats, never leave toned coats unprotected. Toner isn't quite as glossy as clear and rubbing toner sufficiently to give a good gloss risks cutting through it.
-Tony

[Phil G4SPZ]

Will do, Tony.

I've now ordered the toners and 3 cans of clear gloss. Just need a nice warm dry day off work!

Phil