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Old 15th Feb 2014, 11:17 am   #1
darkmatter
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Default The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

I have had an interest in these designs since my early Teenage years when I heard a pair of Spendor BC1s
I currently own and use Spendor BCIs BCIIIs and currently have Spendor SA3s in place in the main system.
Any forum members here have any experience with the LS 5/8 and the passive version the PM510?
I may look for a pair of the PM510s or maybe the LS5/8s to simply try them out.
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Old 15th Feb 2014, 12:31 pm   #2
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

I balanced on the 5/8 back in the day - big, powerful, unforgiving of sloppy mic technique - a near-ideal tool, in other words. The smaller LS3/7 gave, to my ears, a sweeter sound, within the BBC envelope, but the maintenance of either these days is problematical - the 5/8 woofer has long since disappeared.
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Old 15th Feb 2014, 12:56 pm   #3
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Many thanks for the reply I wonder how the Rogers PM510 (LS 5/8) compare to the Spendor SA3?
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 11:54 pm   #4
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Quite interested to learn more about the early large studio monitors LS 5/1s etc
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 6:17 pm   #5
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

I have used LS5/8 speakers for over thirty years, 20 years whilst in the BBC and since leaving, hardly being able to believe my luck at being able to pick up a pair of speakers and amps for £400.oo. Some of the components in the Quad 405's are now past their sell by date and the copper track on many boards can peel if you are not careful when soldering. Of course the cheapest service of them is to take out the speaker baffle board and take off the bass unit and turn it round 180 degrees so that the cone, if it has sagged slightly, will sag the other way! They are a very analitical speaker and unforgiving of badly recorded or broadcast music. However a well recorded piece of music or of course drama can put you right in the action.
The very last version of the speaker, with the Chord amplifier designated AM8/20 shows just how far ahead the cabinet design was.

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Old 20th Feb 2014, 10:24 am   #6
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

I once tried turning a pair of Spendor BC1 bass Drivers 180 degrees, and it didn't cure the 'sagging cone' problem! Maybe I was just unlucky. Oddly enough I don't recall coming across that fault in other, less expesive speaker systems!
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Old 20th Mar 2014, 4:56 pm   #7
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramofiend View Post
The very last version of the speaker, with the Chord amplifier designated AM8/20 shows just how far ahead the cabinet design was
Would like to hear a pair of the later LS 5/8s with the Chord amp modules. I have a passive SA3 system and am looking for an active pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
I balanced on the 5/8 back in the day - big, powerful, unforgiving of sloppy mic technique - a near-ideal tool, in other words. The smaller LS3/7 gave, to my ears, a sweeter sound, within the BBC envelope, but the maintenance of either these days is problematical - the 5/8 woofer has long since disappeared.
Yes I have now realised this and will be looking for an active SA3 as an alternative Spendor can still repair the 12" unit the one in the SA3 is very close to the one in the SP100R2.
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Old 20th Mar 2014, 5:44 pm   #8
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'LIVEWIRE?' View Post
I once tried turning a pair of Spendor BC1 bass Drivers 180 degrees, and it didn't cure the 'sagging cone' problem! Maybe I was just unlucky. Oddly enough I don't recall coming across that fault in other, less expesive speaker systems!
How long did you give it ? The 'offset' creep in the cone-centring supports can take years to develop and while it only has to move back a very small distance for the coil to stop rubbing that can still take a little while - hours or days, for example. It was a very well-known problem with the Leak Sandwiches, apparently. Mine certainly suffered from it. Of course these particular speakers did have unusually heavy cones.

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Old 21st Mar 2014, 1:14 pm   #9
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

I must admit that as soon as I had been in contact with a former colleague in the original engineering services division I turned my original drivers through 180 degrees as a precaution. I had no idea that the internal recomendation was to do this every three years, although none of the units where I was working were so treated. I have quite a few of these now and am working through the active amplifier sets preparitory to total refurbishment. I think one has to go a long way to beat these for quality rEproduction. The slightly extended top end with the flatter frequency response of the Chord amplifier set up is, in my opinion, worthwile.
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Old 20th Jun 2014, 10:23 pm   #10
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Just retrieved a pair of Spendor BCIIIs out of storage one of the drivers is suffering from the dreaded cone sag so will see what the results are after a week or two of inversion.
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Old 21st Jun 2014, 6:10 pm   #11
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Dare I raise my head again :lol:

I have currently some Spendor BC2's which were refurbed a few years ago with re-checked ex-SA2 drivers (so later tweaked spec). I have huge sentimental connections to these as I sold these in September 1974 new to their first owner, who then left them via his son to me. The sound isn't as 'even' as modern Harbeths, but the bass is far superior to the BC1 although upper mid integration isn't quite as good on decent source material. The 'family resemblance' is definitely there though

The second system currently uses some Rogers (non BBC usage) LS5/9's. Like the big active 'production' 5/8's, there's an upper mid recession (shared with the BC2 as well...) and this can either be heard as an over-full mid bass, or a splendid, if slightly overdone sense of three dimensions in the soundtsge. Contrast this balance to the 'glare' often exhibited in some modern smaller 'monitors' which must have been influenced a bit by the screaming Yamaha NS10's as used in every studio it seems (if a mix 'works' on NS10's it'll work on anything I'm told..).

BCIII's sadly now will need drivers inverting to prevent the sag (same for many BC1's too) and I don't know how the inevitable mid driver suspension problem (if it has a white surround) affects this version of the BC2 driver. The white surround can revert to 'flat' from the original half roll shape over the years and this needs attention which Spendor cannot provide now.

I never heard the 5/8's at the time, but the passive? PM510 was a thuddy, boomy old thing when used as a floor-stander. This was in the late 70's and high stands as the Beeb used would not have found favour I believe.

I also never heard the SA3, but both passive and active versions were reviewed in Hifi Choice (I have the books) and the conclusion was that these beefy sounding boxes needed a big room to properly integrate.
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Old 21st Jun 2014, 10:26 pm   #12
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Dave
Interesting insight and thank you for your post.
I have a nice pair of SA3s and they sound mighty fine on the end of a Krell KSA100 and a recent FPB 400cx.
Particularly with the 400cx driving them they sound very controlled, dynamic and quite well balanced, with a fairly smooth overall response though the extreme top end is very slightly rolled off.
However even with the large baffle size they integrate very well. I have the very issue of HiFi Choice you speak of and it does make mention of the integration issue, though the big Krell controls them very well.
I fancy that the amplifiers Martin was using in the Choice review couldn't offer the control the Krell offers in abundance.
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Old 22nd Jun 2014, 9:09 am   #13
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

The Krells you have are perfect for the job and many years ago now, I was a fool to turn down a pair of KMA100 mono's for a then knockdown price. Electricity bill aside, I'd have never lost on them. I remember the FPB300 I sold with great affection and respect and there's been a 600 for sale on Art of Sound for under four grand which is a great price for 'Top End' such as this. Those days are long gone for me now and fortunately, some old pro amps are pretty good and very cheap in comparison

Just think, a pair of Spendor S100's sold on ebay for well under a grand not long ago (couple of years I think). I bet they'd fetch well over that now...
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 3:18 am   #14
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

It was great seeing a discussion of the LS5/8 here. I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience on the passive crossover for the LS5/8 from Graham Audio?
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Old 4th Nov 2015, 2:04 am   #15
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkmatter View Post
Quite interested to learn more about the early large studio monitors LS 5/1s etc
I managed to purchase a pair of these recently so looking forward to integrating them into my system. I have since upgraded from a 400cx power amp to a 700cx
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 5:18 pm   #16
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Looking again here a year or more on, may I make some observations to refresh this subject?

The Harbeth User Group is blessed (or cursed? :lol to have the owner/designer Alan Shaw as a 'very' active member. He's gone into chapter and verse about the LS5/8 and the smaller 5/9 NOT being a neutral speaker, despite the BBC design papers indicating the prototypes were indeed neutral. Both these speakers when newly manufactured and twenty odd years down the line, exhibit a deliberate? upper midrange dip which has been tested over many pairs of examples. Indeed, my own LS5/9's sound rather 'ripe' in the upper bass if not properly positioned well away from walls and on high stands (20" to 24" preferably with my pair). I've now abandoned my pair for now... Apparently, the LS5/5's were the last of the truly neutral BBC monitors.

I look forward to reading how these older models have changed, or not, and how they match up to conventional speaker wisdom. I'm currently very much enjoying some very old IMF Compact speakers from the early 70's. Crinkly-doped paper cone drivers (I think the early mid driver was Elac, although someone suggested EMI - plastic cone surround rather than foam as used in later models). I had the bass units re-foamed and wasn't sure what I was going to get, but I've been thrilled at how clear and basically natural they are and the leaner bass than later IMF's (let alone the LS5/9's) suits their current position beautifully.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 9:43 pm   #17
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Hi Dave

Thank you for this interesting post and yes I will post my thoughts and observations when I have them in place. From conversations I have had with several others; this is as I understand it from this, that the LS5/5 were balanced as the last true neutral BBC design.

From my limited experience of the LS5/1AEs before I purchased this pair I was extremely impressed by their accuracy particularly with vocals. For such an old design they sounded fresh very open with great clarity more in common with high end offerings of today but with greater neutrality.

I will expand upon this as I get them settled into my system

Simon
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 11:06 pm   #18
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Well, I don't know, I only balanced on the things, but I didn't regard the 5/8 as being "non-neutral" - analytical, yes, but not with the crude top lift that such a term is usually taken to mean. They were neutral enough to hear through to the virtues and defects of the sound you were balancing - perhaps a little coarser at the top end than PMCs, for instance, but that was about it. David Stripp (Assistant, Standards and Acoustics) was a very particular fellow, and he wouldn't have countenanced the sort of stuff that's being talked about here. Indeed, he personally set up every one of the first batch of 5/8s against the reference at ED.

I never liked the 5/9, incidentally, though even that wasn't deliberately skewed, just much less useful than the 8 as a tool.
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Old 5th Nov 2015, 11:25 pm   #19
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

Thanks Ted very useful to have his experience posted here. It has been a while since I last listened to a pair of 5/8s so cannot fairly compare them to the LS5/1 Auditory memory is notoriously poor and short term.

The LS5/8 being an active design wouldn't allow me to make like for like comparison. I am guessing this could only be achieved in my system using the passive equivalent the PM510, where I would be able to compare systems like for like by using the same replay chain.

Simon
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Old 7th Nov 2015, 4:42 pm   #20
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Default Re: The BBC monitor sound Loudspeakers from Spendor Rogers, Harbeth....

The current thinking by Alan Shaw (Harbeth) is that BBC designs are just that - intended for the BBC's use primarily. There's certainly enough evidence gathered over some years to suggest a 3 or more db drop in response from 400Hz (5/8) and 500Hz (5/9) to around 3kHz to back it up. My own 5/9's though, have gone from sounding dry toned and analytical in high 24" mounted free space conditions, to fat and soft toned close to a wall and sat on solid platforms desk mounted (the only place I could use them) and rather nice in free space on 18" pillar stands, so it's anyone's guess frankly. Some equivalent period Spendor SP2/3's sounded bland and rather 'lush' in comparison..

Forgive me. I can only report what others have published with evidence to back their claims up. Using these things in a non controlled domestic situation is always going to offer differences I think...
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