Restoring a 1970s cabinet record player - Need cartridge identification

[apersonthingy]

My grandparents have had their old cabinet record player since they bought it new in 1977, and despite being relatively well maintained with very little use, it has fallen a little into disrepair. It's a lot of the typical things, such as oiling the knobs, tweaking components, and adjusting some other little things, but there's a couple of things I can't seem to figure out - Most importantly what cartridge it uses and what the model of the player actually is. (I've contacted the holder of the only one I can find online, and hoping for a response. Link to the Kijiji posting below.)

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-other-musica...33661?uar=true

The best name I can come up with is the "Electrophonic total music system"

The end goal here is to find out what the best cartridge for the machine could possibly be. (All relevant pictures and videos included below)

All I know is that it uses an "SC 12H," which is made for ceramic cartridges.. The cartridge itself is most likely the original, again, from 1977.

The objective is to get the best cartridge possible, without spending more than about $75 CAD.
It is possible that this cartridge is proprietary, and if it is, I would settle with a brand new version of it if that is available. Replacing the tone arm with a similar one, if it means I can fit a better cartridge, is also an option.

Links:

********************a/e7xOe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ronv...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIxRDETawgk

I thank you all in advance. I hope to hear back soon

[paulsherwin]

That will be a BSR SC12H, a high output ceramic cartridge. The only sensible upgrade would be to fit a magnetic cartridge such as an Audio Technica AT91, but that would involve fitting an RIAA preamp too. You can still buy styluses for the SC12H but the cartridge itself is now hard to find and expensive.

[Edward Huggins]

The BSR SC12H cartridge and its styli are available from Stereoneedeslady in Krebs, Oklahoma. They may be a US EV (electrovoice) equivlent. Don't be too mislead by the "H" suffix it's not as a high an output as you would get from a crystal cartridge. Replacing the tone arm (almost impossible to do) and adding a MM cartridge with a suitable RIAA pre-amp, is unlikely to sound any better, if at all, as a new SC12H stylus/cartridge. The electronics will just not do it justice. Don't try upgrading a budget autochanger into something it can never be. I note you are using the BSR autochanger without the overarm in the correct postion, sorry if you already know this.

[RojDW48]

That looks like a nice old system. The SC12H is probably as good as it gets without, as Paul suggests, going magnetic and fiddling around with phono pre-amps. Even the stylus tip doesn't look too bad. I expect if you placed the overarm over the spindle it would even auto return. I would make a small investment in a nice new stylus and see how that sounds before considering major surgery.

[apersonthingy]

Thanks to everyone that replied. I'm not going for audiophile quality here. Just looking for the biggest bump I can. I've got a pro-ject primary on the way, which should cover good sound quality.

While I trust that Paul's suggestion would probably be the best way to go for sound quality, I'm not looking to replace the pre-amp or anything like that. I would like to keep it as original as possible, and as Edward and Roj would suggest, it would probably be held back by the vintage budget electronics anyway.

This is just a little project I've been working on for the novelty of the machine.

I've heard that cartridges can deteriorate over time, and I was wondering if that could be a factor, as the stylus, while not young, at about 5 years old, hasn't really been touched since it was installed due to lack of interest in the machine, mostly due to it being more of a gigantic keepsake for my grandparents. I was younger when the stylus was installed, and while I can say that the old stylus went through all kinds of hell when I played with it, I'm not sure how much, if any of that abuse ever met the "new" one.

Although I was young, I don't think the new stylus really made a difference in sound quality. I'll most likely look into buying a new stylus, and if that doesn't do much, or even if it does help, I will most likely end up ordering a new replacement cartridge.

I just realized while looking at a picture of the stylus, that it appears as if the stylus is labeled backwards. Unless I'm horribly wrong, I am certain that the bigger needle is for 78s, although the tab labels the big one as "lp" and the other as 78. Any possibility this is a defect? How much would it degrade the sound?

To close this post, yes, the auto return works beautifully when the overarm is... well... over.
I just didn't like it when I pushed the tonearm a little too far and made it stop. Also, as I was working on it and experimenting, due to using a single, it was nice to have it loop.

I know this post was a little long, but I hope I can get some more advice. Thanks

-Will

[Techman]

The stylus is in the correct position for playing LP 33 and 45 records as you have it in your video with the tab facing inwards towards the centre spindle.

There's absolutely no point whatsoever in replacing that cartridge on a player like that as the one you have is about the best match for it.

As Edward has mentioned above, you have the overarm in the wrong position for playing a record as with it that position the record will keep repeating. You risk damaging the record and stylus if you keep flicking the 'off' lever with the stylus still tracking the record and letting it grind to a halt - not good!

Stack the record on the spindle with the over arm in position on top of it and let it drop properly and then it will auto-stop correctly at the end.

[apersonthingy]

I explained in a reply to everyone prior that I had the overarm like that because I specifically wanted it to repeat. Also, I have since flipped the spindle upside down, which allows me to put the record on manually, without risk of scratches from the drop - Not that the records that were purchased within a decade of the machine are in mint condition.

I didn't realize that stopping it with the stylus on could be bad. I figured that if it's fine going at 33, 45, and 78 RPM, how could going lower damage it.

I encourage you to look at the photo I provided if you haven't, as it seems that the smaller needle is on the opposite side.

Thanks

-Will

[Techman]

You can't tell by looking at the 'needle', the LP one often does appear larger. You'd need to examine the actual tip under a good microscope to see properly.

It's not so much the record grinding to a halt but the 'jolt' the stylus gives to the groove walls from the mechanical shock of the lever action - you can see it happening as you snap that lever to the 'off' position. It may not matter with your old singles, but might be more of a risk with your valuable albums.

PS, What 'scratches' when it drops?

[RojDW48]

I am probably stating the obvious - but the stylus should be on the 'wrong' side - ie with the 78 label facing up - the 78 stylus should be facing down. And, yes it is the bigger one.

[Techman]

As Roger says, it is the 'bigger' one for 78s, but the way it's mounted often tends to make it look smaller - unless you examine the tip properly under a microscope.

[apersonthingy]

Originally Posted by Techman

It's not so much the record grinding to a halt but the 'jolt' the stylus gives to the groove walls from the mechanical shock of the lever action - you can see it happening as you snap that lever to the 'off' position. It may not matter with your old singles, but might be more of a risk with your valuable albums.

I would just feel better laying the records down myself rather than letting a machine drop it on a plastic platter, often times not falling straight down. This is especially an issue with LPs, as the outer 1 inch or so of it hangs over the edge.

[Neil Purling]

Does the platter almost come to a halt when the trip & return cycle starts?.
It is usual for the bearings to need re-lubricating on a long-disused record player.
There is probably a 'sticky' topic on the procedure of servicing a auto-changer record deck.
The BSR SC12H cartridge was the OEM fit for this turntable. It produces around 150mV output.
Generic SC12H clones are available, which you probably will not need.
I tried a Stanton 500 magnetic cartridge and RIAA pre-amplifier in one of my players. It made no discernable difference in the sound quality. You probably couldn't fit something like the Stanton 500 to that tone-arm as there is only one fixing screw & the tracking weight is not easily adjustable
The cartridges that deteriorated over time were the crystal type because moisture destroyed the Rochelle Salt crystal.

[apersonthingy]

Thanks. I suppose I'll just keep it how it is. This will make you cringe, but when I was about 11, and the old stylus had worn out, I hot glued a sharp metal wire to the cartridge, and it worked. It even sounded about as good as a proper stylus. Also, unbelievably, it didn't seem to damage the records. Bottom line here is that if a steel wire and hot glue doesn't sound bad and doesn't damage the records a noticeable amount (at least with less than 20 plays) I'd say I'm probably fine with the worst modern stylus imaginable.

I will probably re-lubricate the bearings, just for the sake of completeness. I think I did notice a bit of slow-down when the autochanger mechanism was working, but I shook it off because by the time the record was playing, whatever tiny amount of RPM loss I suffered had recovered.

Thanks to everyone for everything, I'm just going to leave all the components in it until they start smoking

-Will

[apersonthingy]

For those who are curious, and want a longer, more in-depth demo and view of the machine, I've recorded the entirety of "Goodbye stranger" played on it. As it turns out, besides some somewhat significant wow and flutter, the sound is quite clear considering that it is running on 2 5 or so inch 5 watt speakers. It can go much louder than was demoed in the video, however there was no need to do so.

I thought a cartridge and stylus upgrade or replacement would have been nice, but it may have just been the old records I was using. My copy of Breakfast in America is brand new, and sounded quite good. All of the records I played on it sounded exactly the same sound quality wise, so it seemed logical to blame the stylus or cartridge.

Again, I thank everyone for their help and suggestions. Now, that's enough rambling. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAXE...ature=youtu.be

EDIT: Yes, I know the overarm is in the wrong position. It became a habit when I was using singles.

[RojDW48]

Well - it's all there isn't it? That's a nice 70s sound if ever I heard one. You could sort out the wow and flutter with a basic service of the deck - all the info you need is on the forum - nice work!

Incidentally - does the lift lever not work? It's more reliable than the trembling finger on the whole.

[apersonthingy]

Thanks! I haven't yet tested the 8 track player, I'm doing one thing at a time.

If I wish to play a specific track, I believe it is necessary to move the tonearm manually. I haven't tried it, but do you know if it will auto return if you hit the auto button? It's a BSR changer if you hadn't noticed.

Everything appears to be there. As I said, it was never used much. The only damage on it, in fact, is actually due to my mother messing with it when she was a toddler, back when the machine was new.

[stevehertz]

Just curious as to what you mean by "...oiling the knobs, tweaking components.."

[Edward Huggins]

You do not seem to be using this autochanger correctly.....
You do need to lift the tone arm up at the end of a track as you do in the video (and with that darn overarm in the way) just use Eject.
Also playing a 12"LP without the overarm set correctly it will mean the arm returns and plonks itself back on to the surface of the LP at the position of a 7" single. Not good!
And you can use the autochanger Manually (by-passing the auto functions) by switching to Manual.

[apersonthingy]

Originally Posted by stevehertz

Just curious as to what you mean by "...oiling the knobs, tweaking components.."

I'll start with the easiest first. By "Oiling the knobs", I mean spraying some WD-40 in the control knobs, as in the "loudness", balance, bass/treble, etc.

Since doing this, the knobs have been working smoothly and not cutting out for the better part of a week.

As for what I mean by tweaking, the only real example would be how I fixed the over speed issue with 45s. I have linked a picture below in case you are unfamiliar with the BSR changer in this system.

Under the platter, there is the shaft from the motor, which has 3 parts. at the top is small in diameter, the middle is, well, the middle, and the bottom has a larger diameter. The rubber wheel comes in to contact with various parts of the motor shaft for different speeds. The wheel then makes contact with the platter. The issue was that said wheel was making contact with the top of the 78 section of the motor shaft while playing 45s, which sped up the platter by about 6% according to what I've been able to come up with in audacity. All I had to do was adjust the golden colored screw you can see above the wheel in the picture provided.

I felt like a bit of a tool after I found that, because I had just spent the last 30 minutes looking for a speed adjustment dial.

Picture:
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...6&d=1231882638

Anyway, I hope this answers your questions.

-Will

[vidjoman]

"The issue was that said wheel was making contact with the top of the 78 section of the motor shaft while playing 45s,"
It's most probably due to the rubber grommets sagging after all these years.