Advice on first Reel to Reel Purchase

[TEMAS]

Hi all, this is my first post here.

Quick background: I've been making music professionally for over 10 years now (I mainly do music to picture - TV stuff etc) and am putting the finishing touches to my new home/pro studio. I've spent quite a bit on new toys already and my set up is looking pretty hot.

I haven't used tape for about 12 years (when I was at uni ) but I'd like to get hold of a nice 1/4" 2-Track to experiment with and to use mainly as an 'effect' on certain instruments, and possibly on ocassions to record the final mix to.

For a while I was thinking a Revox B77 HS would be ideal - its got that 'vintage mystique' about it and I imagine it has 'that' tape character that I'm after. Prices appear to be rising on these though; have I already missed the boat?

Then there's the Tascam BR-20 - much newer, possibly more reliable and surely a steal at about a 10th of its original price. But is it as accurate as a 'real' high-end 2-Track (i.e, ATR-102) and can it really create the vintage warmth effect I'm after? It doesn't have the lust factor for me thats for sure.

Or perhaps a Fostex E-22 would do the trick on 1/2" tape?

But, I'm starting to think that if I'm gonna put the time into looking after one these decks, I should perhaps spend a little extra to get something a little more 'special,' a Studer A810 for example or a Sony APR-5000.

At this stage, I'd apreciate any advice I can get. I don't even know the going rate for an A810 in great condition. And apart from ebay, where can I go and look for one?

Cheers.

[TIMTAPE]

Wow, you're talking about top machines. If you're only going to use it for tape based effect (warmth etc) it'll hardly matter which model you choose. You'll hardly be using a tenth of what the machine was designed to do.

The "analog warmth' of tape is partly because the tape overloads progressively, unlike amplifiers and digital which simply hit a brick wall. It also gives a gentle soft-limit effect' at similar levels of overload.

"Accurate?"... With tape distortion, you're driving the tape into overload anyway so accuracy is hardly the issue.

When analog tape was all we had, I tried hard NOT to get any tape based distortion of any kind in the recording. It was nice that tape overloaded progressively as a sort of safety net but I always tried for a recording with NO colouration from the tape. Loud recordings on analog tape also had a habit of giving "print through" echoes which would come to haunt you later on.
Speaking as a senior member it does seem a bit of a come down that these fantastically designed machines should now be relegated to the status of an FX unit, and when driven beyond their design parameters! But I guess that's progress.
Good luck in your search. These machines are really at throw away prices but condition also has a big impact on the price.
Cheers Tim

[TEMAS]

Originally Posted by TIMTAPE

These machines are really at throw away prices but condition also has a big impact on the price.
Cheers Tim

Yes, condition seems to rule out about 95% of my searches.

Thanks for your reply and I understand that it seems strange that I would want to pay so much for that tape saturation effect and I think you're right not to dwell too long on which decks saturate the best!

But when compared to products designed specifically to emulate tape saturation (EL 'Fatso' or RND '5042' which both retail at about £1,400) I think £500/£600 is not a crazy amount to pay for the 'real thing' which analog purists swear by as superior to any emulation.

Also, most of the time I won't be trying destroy or degrade the quality of the recordings I've made, but just to add a hint of analog and I think to do this it is important to choose a deck that will not have an adverse on the sonics that I've spent so long keeping in tact.

[Bev and Andy]

hi temas,I might be able to sell you my Revox B77 mk2 for a resonable price.It depends on reel to reel man getting back to me with his offer to sort me out(see teac/revox help on same page) Once I know I have another machine to replace said Revox I would consider getting rid.Its in good working condition,but I really need a good 4-8 track,so its in the lap of the gods,good luck Andy

[TEMAS]

Originally Posted by Bev and Andy

hi temas,I might be able to sell you my Revox B77 mk2 for a resonable price.It depends on reel to reel man getting back to me with his offer to sort me out(see teac/revox help on same page) Once I know I have another machine to replace said Revox I would consider getting rid.Its in good working condition,but I really need a good 4-8 track,so its in the lap of the gods,good luck Andy

Hi. I would be interested if it the HS version (up to 15ips speed). If not I wouldn't. What condition are the heads in and when was it last alligned.

Cheers.

[paulsherwin]

You do need to bear in mind that the B77 was always a semipro machine and wouldn't have been found in many studios other than little places in the sticks. You can get some true professional Studers for little money now, since they take up a lot of space and aren't portable or even standalone. There are lots of ex BBC ones about though many are mono.

Paul

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by TEMAS

Then there's the Tascam BR-20 - much newer, possibly more reliable and surely a steal at about a 10th of its original price. But is it as accurate as a 'real' high-end 2-Track (i.e, ATR-102) and can it really create the vintage warmth effect I'm after? It doesn't have the lust factor for me thats for sure.

The BR-20 is a very, very nice unit that was only discontinued last year.

I know that Europeans have a soft spot for various Revoxes but the A77 has never really excited me, and while the B77 was nice I didn't think it was any better than a Tascam 32. But that could just be me

If you check out the "Analog Only" (americans can't spell) forum over at http://www.homerecording.com/bbs there's lots of opinions on this. There's a lot of regard for the Fostex you mention, but one thing to remember is that you're stuck if you need parts - Fostex won't want to know you, while most parts for the Tascams are still available. 2 track on 1/2" is a nice idea though.

I have a Tascam 32 and Akai GX265D, both mainly used for archiving old material, but I'd have no hestitation using the 32 as a mixdown deck to provide some warmth.

[Bev and Andy]

Hi Temas Ive checked my B77 out,it has 2 speeds 7 1/2 and 15 ips also on the right is a variable speed control.The heads seem fine,I have done some recording on it and the sound quality is exelent.There are 2 minor faults,1-the tape counter doesn,t work (cogged belt ko,ed) 2-the right record on/off switch toggle is broken but functions.Before I got it ,it was used in small studio.

[reel-to-reel-man]

Hello, I have a A810 which I may be interested in selling, its the portable version with the meters inside the machine, running from 5.5/4 to 17 ips, these are fantastic recorders.

[TEMAS]

Thanks for the replies and offers.

I've decided to rule out the B77/A77/PR99 option and spend a little extra. The Tascam BR-20 may well be a great unit, but I'm not so sure it'll be as desirable in comparison to other brands if I sell it a few years down the line - of course I could be completely wrong about that, it might turn into a hidden treasure.

I've made an offer/bid on a Studer A810, so I can't make an other offers until I see if I win that one.

Reel-to-Reel-Man, What do you mean by the meters are inside? Does this mean you don't get any visible meters?

People have recommended the Studer A807 to me also, as a slightly cheaper option which performs as well as the A810.

I've also been researching Stellavox products; the modified SP8 (aka SM8) looks really nice.

[reel-to-reel-man]

Many A810 machines do not have the two VU meters on the front, there is one up for sale on a well known site which is quite a rare find though if they have not been setup correctly they can be a nightmare as there are many settings hiddden on them under the front panel. If the sale falls through then send me an PM.

Cheers!

[TEMAS]

Originally Posted by reel-to-reel-man

there is one up for sale on a well known site which is quite a rare find

I think that may be the one I've bid on - its only fault is that one of the V.U. bulbs has gone. Sound familiar!?

I read that a lot of the ones without V.U meters were built for radio stations, and therefore had done quite a few miles.

[reel-to-reel-man]

Thats the one, these are great mahcines, they do suffer from computer faults, one of mine is currently looking for a repair on the MP board. I have two, one like the one on the well known site and this one

http://www.vintagerecorders.co.uk/VR...age.asp?IDS=37


I use them almost every day and think they are fantastic machines.

[Ingenium]

I am looking for a machine that will record Classical Guitar with some integrity as the sound has to be captured via Microphone - no Pick-ups. I have in the past used Portostudios but with poor quality. I am about to make an offer on a Tascam BR-20 and am not that well informed on such machines.

Can anyone advise-my objective is to buy a machine that is useqable for multi-tracking and producies high quality accoustic sound.

Ian

[reel-to-reel-man]

This Tascam is the last of the reel to reels, sold for £2100 about 3-5 years ago in canford. There are a few that come up on auctions and I would say they are worth about £500 now as it's not in the league of the Studers, Nagras and Ampex machines though I would say the sound reproduction will be 100 times better than the porta studio multi tracker.

If you have the cash, there is a Studer A827 up for sale, a cheaper A800 (Both 24 track's), both superior machines for recording but is reflected in the price

[TIMTAPE]

1.Maybe a lone voice in defence of the humble cassette... Sure they could be fiddly but a good portastudio with dbx NR, set up properly, gave an excellent account of itself. Dare I say it, it could be quieter than any Studer, Tascam or whatever pro reel to reel half track without NR.

2.It's perhaps a bit outside the scope of this column but...You mention recording live acoustic guitar. Dont know what sort of standard you are wanting, or how much experience you have but recording live is a different kettle of fish to merely recording radio programs or even CD's onto tape. The dynamics of a live performance can be ginormous and of course unpredictable unless carefully rehearsed. Professionals rarely recorded live just with a mic plugged into a bare reel to reel. There was normally some sort of NR or at least compression or limiting.
The mighty little old Nagra portables had limiters built in, but switchable, with metering to tell you what was going on. But then they were built for live recording. Plug a good mic in and you were on your way.
These days with fantastic digital gear readily available, you can record live without any compression or NR. But unadorned analog tape, no matter whether cassette or reel to reel never was in that league.
If you want to go analog tape, it has its limitations, the limitations that were always known and so extra work arounds were used to get a top result.

I'm not saying it cant be done without NR on say a BR-20 or similar excellent reel to reel machine but your setting up and preparation, especially adjusting of record levels will need to be carefully done or the result may disappoint. The classic high fidelity analog recordings of yesteryear were great- but they werent simple to make!
I'm speaking here more as a sound recording tech than about my enthusiasm for the great old reel to reel machines themselves.
Cheers Tim

[reel-to-reel-man]

Interesting, though I think the portastudio is not a patch on a Studer, the DBX system though good did distort the output hence why I don’t use it on my X-2000R. If you want to go down the rout of a reel to reel or analogue tape then my advice is a Studer, Tascam, Otari or Nagra (Nagra IV-s or T) though the cheaper option would be a Dat machine or a hard disk recorder, one went up for auction for £600, that was a 8 track.

[Kat Manton]

Hi,

Probably getting dangerously close to drifting OT, but I've been drifting away from analogue simply as it's easier now to get good results from digital systems. It still costs money, but by the time you've got a decent multitrack reel-to-reel machine, analogue console, outboard dynamics, EQ, reverb/delay etc you may find it would have been cheaper to get an Apple PowerBook/MacBook, FireWire audio interface and some music software.

For a solo musician wishing to record overdubbed multitrack recordings an Apple PowerBook, FireWire interface such as the M-Audio FireWire Solo and software such as Apple's Garageband or Logic Express is all that's needed. You then have two boxes giving you a portable multitrack recording system. Dynamics (limiting/compression), EQ, reverb, delay and many other effects are all handled in software. If more channels need to be recorded simultaneously, multichannel FireWire interfaces are available.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those digital 'evangelists'. I'm a 'technology enthusiast' and that runs from the very earliest valve equipment right up to the cutting edge. I have a Tascam Porta-Two HS (cassette 4-track, runs at 3.75ips, dbx NR.) It's easily 3 times the size of my PowerBook, bits of it wear out and the media degrades over time. To get decent-sounding recordings I need to use it with a rack-mount compressor/limiter and a rack-mount reverb processor. I've had a lot of fun using it but... I'm going digital.

But, if I ever have the space and money I still want to set up an all-valve, all-analogue 8-track studio

Regards, Kat.

[Ingenium]

I am becoming seriousely worried now- my aversion to the Portastudio was most likely due to my lack of skill as well as over expectation. I play Classical guitar which is difficult to capture with integrity so I thought Reel to Reel would offer a better option. I need reverb and NR of some kind and am struggling to know what would be my best direction for equipment and mode-i.e.Digital or Analogue.....

Any ideas appreciated

Ian

[Kat Manton]

Hi Ian,

I can appreciate that it's a difficult instrument to capture well. There are several areas of difficulty. One is that it can be a fairly dynamic instrument; you set the levels up to avoid clipping on a louder passage and the softer parts get lost in the noise. This is where a compressor/limiter helps. Just a touch of compression will even things up a bit, bringing quieter sections out of the noise while preventing louder sections from clipping.

Noise reduction is a mixed blessing; in many cases I find it adversely affects the recording. When recording fairly dynamic music with dbx noise-rduction it's possible to hear the noise-reduction 'pumping'.

But... digital recording offers greater dynamic range and no tape hiss, so you don't need noise-reduction...

Close-miking any instrument means the natural ambience of the room the instrument is played in is lost in the recording, hence a dash of reverb will bring back that ambience and bring the recording to life. In the absence of a reverb processor, one technique is to record using two mikes; one placed near the instrument as usual; the other one somewhere else in the room. Record each mike on a seperate track so when mixing down afterwards you have a 'reverb track' to blend in. You can take it further by using three mikes for stereo reverb. But then you're running out of tracks on a 4-track machine if you still wish to overdub additional tracks.

There's an additional consideration with switching from a portastudio to reel-to-reel; portastudios have a mixing console built-in; with a standalone multitrack reel-to-reel machine you need a mixing console as well.

...unless you find a Tascam 388, a semi-portable console and open-reel 1/4" 8-track 7.5/3.75ips machine all in one box. I'm not sure how common these are but I borrowed one a few years ago for some live recording; it worked well but I was recording a rock band...

The thing is that to get good performance from analogue tape needs big track widths and high tape speed. You still need noise reduction, and you still need to restrict the dynamic range of the recording with compression/limiting. I'd personally love to have a 2" 24-track 30ips Ampex machine at home but looking after it and the cost of tape is prohibitive. I'd worry about using it too much because of the cost of head replacement.

In my opinion, I can get better results for less expense - and that includes ongoing expense - with a decent-spec Apple Mac, FireWire audio interface and some software. The whole lot will go in a shoulder bag if I need to take it anywhere. I've still not got the equipment together myself, but this is the route I'm taking now.

Oh, I do have a SMPTE tape synchroniser so if I do feel the need to add analogue tracks I can slave the computer system to a multitrack... best of both worlds...

Regards, Kat