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Old 10th Jan 2012, 11:06 pm   #41
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

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Originally Posted by matthewhouse View Post
On another note, I could quite happily spend the rest of my days installing MICC, It's by far my favorite cable type and of course surface clipped, can be turned into a work of art. They have stopped teaching the skills to install MI in colleges now as it's too expensive and is not often used any more for various reasons. Several local companies don't touch it as they have never been taught it!

This is such a shame, I didn't realise they had stopped teaching the methods at college, I qualified back in 1998 and we did a bit on MICC.

I install a fair bit at the school I work at and it sounds like at 34, I'm probably one of the youngest sparks still installing the stuff!

Cheers
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:16 am   #42
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

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I install a fair bit at the school I work at and it sounds like at 34, I'm probably one of the youngest sparks still installing the stuff!

Cheers
I'm only 24!

Would there not be a reduced chance of injury in the 50s with a smaller number of appliances and less wiring? I can't imagine the 1950s DIYer installing downlights in every room! And didn't people take more pride in their work back then?
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:27 am   #43
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
On another note, I could quite happily spend the rest of my days installing MICC, It's by far my favorite cable type and of course surface clipped, can be turned into a work of art. They have stopped teaching the skills to install MI in colleges now as it's too expensive and is not often used any more for various reasons. Several local companies don't touch it as they have never been taught it
I used to love doing stuff with MI at college("passed out" in 1987). My favorite bit was "peeling" it with side cutters and producing a spiral of copper.

An elderly Aunt of mine was the worst. She had done some sort of course in the RAF during the war and hadn't updated her knowledge since. Nearly every appliance had joins in the cable insulated(or was once) by that old black cloth tape.It's a wonder she didn't frazzle herself or burn down her bungalow. She lived to 84!

On a scarier note when we moved into a new(to us) house in 1984(I was 14) the builders had the floor up and I was shocked to discover the cooker cable joined by twisting in a foot length of 3 single 2.5mm sq. I wish I had kept the bodge for a rogues gallery but the electricians did away with it when they re-wired.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 12:38 am   #44
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

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I find these stories interesting, in the US most of our electrical systems were done decently by the 50's. Sure there are a few bodges here and there in homes from that time, but don't seem to be as many as what other countries had. Maybe it seems that way because the UK and other countries were updating there codes all the time.
Most of our electrical installations were done decently by the 1950s - in fact most of the workmanship I've seen of pre-war installations was extremely good - but we carried on using them longer, perhaps because our houses tend to be longer-lived.

But there are many areas of US wiring that we would find unacceptable:

- wire nuts
- 'pigtailing' using wirenuts to accessories
- lack of earthing
- use of RCDs (GFCIs) on sockets in lieu of proper earthing
- sockets in bathrooms
- having to use AFCIs (arc fault circuit interrupters) on bedroom sockets because your outlets set fire to things
- multiple outlets on 16A radial circuits at 120V isn't enough power

That's ignoring alumin(i)um wiring - and ring final circuits of course!
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 2:54 am   #45
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Interesting that you find our plugs dangerous, I've actually never seen any problems with them, although it is easy to get a shock my touching the pins!!
I think The Germans solved the problem with the idea of the schuko plug, fitting inside the outlet instead of flush with it. (my home has 2 sets of outlets schuko and American)

-Chris
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 6:41 am   #46
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

The problem with Schuko is that it's reversible, so appliances require double-pole switches.

All that has happened in this country with the recent bureaucracy - requiring an expensive piece of paper before you can call yourself an electrician - is that it has encouraged the "old guard" to retire sooner rather than later, and a new breed of bodge-artists to start up; emboldened by an official document that says whatever they are doing is right by definition.

We had already got to the point, about 20 years ago, where everything was about as safe as it was ever going to get. Once you are in that position, any change you make is more likely to make things worse than better.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 9:26 am   #47
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This thread has moved a little off topic but is still very intersting to read.......

Back in 1989 I went to stay with a friend for a couple of weeks in Harrogate NY. His dad owned a beautiful old house near to the Stray. It resembled a castle. All the sockets were screwed to the large ornate baseboards and I noticed that varoius (not just one) circuits flickered and buzzed as you walked across the floor!! They just accepted this as normal.

On closer investigation most of the upper part of the house had been rewired and brought down to a "newer" consumer unit but the ground floor still had lead covered, rubber insulated wiring. As a previous poster had mentioned the earth continuity of this relied upon the linking of the outer lead sheaths. This was all fine until the clamps, if fitted, came loose.

However on one stretch the rubber insulation had obviously failed live to case so a repair had been done by disconnecting the sheath at the supply end and not giving any thought for the socket attached to the end. Being old and wooden the house did not have any nearby earthed structures so when I used a metal cased appliance I got a tingle only.

Spent the next two weeks rewring the house and got fed accordingly. I got a lot of satisfaction from a neat and safe job done. What got me was that the upper floors and lighting circuit had already been done by a "professional" to a good standard but the ends of the circuits still terminated in a consumer unit (or should I say units) of varying age and vintage.

I would say that there was a representation of every design of consumer unit from when the house was first built up to the late 70's fitted. All in varius states of decay and smelling of "fish" as they were running hot. The tails came out of the meter and then were split in at least four different directions.

I guess that this house could be said to represent the best of 50/60/70's bodges....

Referring to Chris's post above re the conditions in the US, I enjoy watching the various DIY programs that are imported and there is frequent reference to Knob & Tube wiring systems. Bet these were fun for the bodgers!!

Steve.
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Old 14th Jan 2012, 7:18 pm   #48
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Greetings! My first post here - not actually what I was going to post about, but never mind, I get distracted easily!

I remember working in a shop some years ago; the shop was large, high cieling, and concrete floor. The result being, in winter, it was blooming cold! Hence, lots of electric fires (we had about 10kW of heating - I dread to think what the bills were like!).

One day, there was a bang and the power went. No sign of damage, replaced the fuse and all was well again - we assumed the high load had simply made the fuse die of old age. Isn't assumption wonderful?

Shortly afterwards, we noticed electric "tingles" from the metalwork of the till and the fires, and a test with a neon showed these were live. Called in the electricity board, who couldn't find any problem (he couldn't have looked very hard).

On investigating further, it transpired that although we had a ring main, it was fed from the fusebox by a length of 5A twin and earth! This had, not surprisingly, melted, causing the live and earth wires to short and blow the fuse. However, it wasn't only the fuse that had opened, it was the earth wire back to the fusebox, the earth to the ring becoming welded to the live! Hence everything worked, but everything was live. I shudder to think what would have happened if someone had gone to fill the kettle.

The result was that I went up the shop and bought a drum of 50A T&E and a load of new sockets; the damaged cable was replaced and all the heaters were fed off their new high-capacity circuit.

On the subject of house wiring, I was asked to look at my mother's very old (early 20th century) house in the midlands. Aparrently they were one of the first places in the country to get electricity and still had the original wiring! To my surprise most of the old (bubber sheathed) wiring was in good condition; not so good was what had been done to it since.

There was a 13A socket in the bathroom with a wall heater plugged into it; on the same spur was the immersion heater in the next room, and both of these were taken from the cooker point in the kitchen!

In the lounge and dining room, were 13A sockets, but the earth wire seemed to go nowhere. They were, in fact, connected to each other but not anything else!

And finally, to bring in a vintage-radio related subject, I remember one old AC/DC set that had a single-pole mains switch that went straight to the chassis from the neutral line. Though I try to keep things original as much as possible, that was changed pronto!

rgds
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Old 14th Jan 2012, 9:06 pm   #49
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Why would 15 amp circuits for rooms be considered not enough? Most of our vacuum cleaners take a maximum of 12 amps peak start up, also we have many rooms on 15 amp circuits, say 2 bedrooms for one 15 amp circuit. (new construction)

What do you call knob and tube, i think the term for something is different, but the same thing i would recognize.
-Chris
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Old 14th Jan 2012, 9:30 pm   #50
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Why do we find US plugs dangerous?
Quote:
it is easy to get a shock by touching the pins!!
With UK plugs it is more or less impossible. Even if you poke around with a piece of metal, into the outlet or between the plug and the outlet, it is still more or less impossible to get a shock or cause a short.

The difference in power ratings is mainly out of habit, after all we have been standardised on 13A outlets for 40-50 years. We expect to be able to get 3kW from any outlet (on account of our 240V) and have 3kW appliances, which can't run at all from a 20A 120V outlet. With 32A ring circuits, a uniquely British concept, we can even run two 3kW appliances safely from a double (duplex) and still have room for more. My ground floor has just two circuits for outlets yet I can run dishwasher, washing machine, microwave, kettle, tumble dryer, vacuum cleaner, heater and toaster all at once without tripping anything.

We never really used knob and tube in a big way, so don't have a name for it as such. Most UK electricians wouldn't recognise the system or the name. The nearest was cleated wiring, with two runs of single core cable mounted through slots in porcelain insulators.

Lucien
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 12:44 pm   #51
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

There in no need for knob-and-tube wiring in the UK. Our buildings are mostly constructed of brick or stone, and our wiring runs cooler for carrying fewer amps. So we just used to chisel out a channel in the masonry and bury the wires. Even where rubber-sheathed, single-core wiring ran through loft spaces and ceiling voids, the wires would just be fixed directly against the wooden beams.

Twin-and-Earth soon replaced single cores. For lighting circuits, we have ceiling roses with 4 groups of terminals for live, neutral, earth and switched live. A T+E cable from the consumer unit visits every ceiling rose in turn, and another T+E cable (ideally with two brown cores, often with the switched live flagged with insulating tape to show it is not at neutral potential, but sometimes not) connects the switch to the rose.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 2:52 pm   #52
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

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The difference in power ratings is mainly out of habit, after all we have been standardised on 13A outlets for 40-50 years. We expect to be able to get 3kW from any outlet (on account of our 240V) and have 3kW appliances, which can't run at all from a 20A 120V outlet.
In particular, we have electric kettles.

I understand that some Americans bow down in awe at their first encounter with a British electric kettle.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 3:46 pm   #53
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

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Why do we find US plugs dangerous?
Quote:
it is easy to get a shock by touching the pins!!
But whilst by no means impossible, the chance of a fatal shock is much less at 120V than 240V. Also ISTR 60Hz is slightly less dangerous than 50Hz for some odd physiological reason.

ISTR Edison was implicated somewhere in the choice of voltage (not frequency, he was a DC man).
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 8:49 pm   #54
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This is a very interesting thread. If you really want nightmares, come to Wet Wales. The wiring here is ghastly. The Electricity company seems to think that having RCDs makes the installation safe. I've had a cooker wired up in such a way that only one ring at a time worked. I investigated and found the neutral and earth wires had been swapped over. I found 110v on the earth wire, it was lucky that it was earthed at all - it was connected to a copper cold water mains pipe. Trouble was, it connected to a blue plastic pipe before going out to the street main. How we weren't killed, God only knows.
One positive note (no pun intended) nothing else in the house was earthed at all. When I replaced the Fuse boxes with a modern Consumer Unit, I found ALL the earth wires coiled up behind the wooden panels that the fuse boxes were mounted on. I also installed a decent Earth rod.
The second house we bought had a fault with an outside light that tripped the main RCD although it wasn't powered through it. That remains a puzzle to me.
The house my daughter bought had a night storage heater which she didn't want. There was naturally, a seperate feed for this which I carefully removed. I can't understand why there was an extra T&E connected to it. Yes, I found out the hard way that it was live. HOW COME. Its obviously connected to the main house wiring somewhere. Anyway its terminated in a junction box with a big warning sticker on it.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 10:25 pm   #55
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Some night storage heaters have a fan, to transfer the stored heat from the firebricks to the room, and so need both a 7h and a 24h supply.
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 10:44 am   #56
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However on one stretch the rubber insulation had obviously failed live to case so a repair had been done by disconnecting the sheath at the supply end and not giving any thought for the socket attached to the end. Being old and wooden the house did not have any nearby earthed structures so when I used a metal cased appliance I got a tingle only.

Steve.
This reminds me of something curious which I discovered by accident. When we lived in Bracknell we had a house built in the early 1970's. I discovered by accident that if I touched the metal case of our DVD player whilst also touching the nearby radiator I could feel a distinct and unpleasant tingling sensation. I discovered this whilst laying in front of the TV and trying to operate the DVD player with my bare foot whilst the other bare foot was resting on a nearby radiator! Needless to say I didn't try it again!
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 10:59 am   #57
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That normally results from a controlled amount of leakage to the case via the interference suppression capacitors. If you stroke your finger over the exposed metal parts of a double-insulated elecrtonic appliance that uses a switching power supply, you can sometimes detect this leakage, typically a fraction of a milliamp, as a sensation of vibration.

If you interconnect a dozen such items with signal cables, the aggregate leakage can give you a noticeable ping. More usually, though, at least one of the items has an earth which collects the leakage via the screens or drain wires in the signal cables. You might well have been getting the TV leakage as well as that of the DVD player assuming there was one connected to it. I don't think it indicates anything about the wiring of the house, other than that the aerial downlead was well isolated from earth.

In this regard the situation is different to the sort of tingle you might get off a 1950s appliance, because the suppressor leakage is predictable and strictly limited. Getting tingles off an old appliance would suggest that there is faulty insulation somewhere that could fail to a dead short at any time. There were no class Y capacitors in 1950!

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Old 16th Jan 2012, 8:58 pm   #58
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

My parents house was built in the mid 50's and still has its original MEM 'Kantark' teak fusebox...and its rubber wiring. I do check it from time to time and the wiring is all fine; the only area of trouble was the perishing of the pendant flexes leading to shorts, I replaced those while I still lived at home. The lighting circuits aren't earthed and the sockets are in 2-core with bare stranded earth that 'calls' at each socket in a daisy chain, originally terminating in the lead water main. In the 70's they had a voltage ELCB installed which I changed to an RCD at an opportune moment along with a proper earth rod and supplementary bonding.
The kantark board has an exposed neutral busbar and porcelain rewireable fuseholders that you can poke your finger in. The incumbent residents know better, however!
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 11:23 pm   #59
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Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

My parents house was built in 1937 and also had rubber cable and a 'MEM' push-pull ceramic lighting fuse box and metal clad boxes for the other circuits. The rubber cable was not so durable there, where the cores were exposed it rapidly perished. With the electric kettle in my hand I went to turn the light on and got quite a belt from one of the plate fixing screws, the rubber had fallen off leaving the bare wire touching the metal fixing bracket. This was about 60 years ago so hopefully its been rewired by now!

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Old 16th Jan 2012, 11:52 pm   #60
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And there in a nutshell is the trouble with rubber cable - it's fickle. Some batches will remain sound, some will harden and crack, some will turn into goo. Until a few years ago I used to advocate leaving rubber cable in service where it was evidently sound, but these days that is becoming a less tenable position. Cable that has no weak spots at all, as in Kevin's parents' house is something of a rarity now. Even early PVC is starting to become a liability with green goo turning up ever more frequently.

PVC was at first considered inferior to rubber because of its lower insulation resistance, its acceptance being hastened due to 1940s rubber shortage. One can visualise contractors using this new-fangled grey stuff wondering whether it would catch on. Polyethylene was also in the running and still has its own corner of the market, e.g. in XLPE armoured cable. AFAIK old polyethylene cables are as good as new today.

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