Powering the electric winch on a mast

[Panrock]

I am looking into powering the electric winch on an extending mast. A 12v supply will be needed at many tens of amps for short periods while the mast is raised, extended and retracted. To provide this, I am intending to use a car battery connected to a charger.

Do you think a battery incorporating 'start-stop' technology is to be preferred?

Thank you.

Steve

[Bazz4CQJ]

You've not given a great deal of detail (what does "short periods" equate to?), but could it be that this is a question not so much of what type of car battery is best, but what type of lead acid battery is best? For example, is a 'deep discharge' type worth considering?

B

[Panrock]

I really don't know yet (and have no experience of these winches), but looking at the winch motor specs I would guess of the order of 60 amps for a minute or two at a time. This would equate to a discharge of 1 to 2 AH, so a deep discharge between charges is unlikely.

Steve

[dodgy-dxer]

For 100ft Strumech masts we just use a decent car battery, one for use and one being charged but a full battery will go up and down at least twice

(I use the "we" correctly - contest club station)

Another friend has similar, biggish car battery on a sack barrow on trickle charge in his shed

73 Fred
G4BWP

[Richard - F4VPR]

I have a Superwinch 4000 to wind up my 60ft Strumech tower, the battery is a 100Ah Yuasa leisure type I bought new some 9 years ago and is in a snap-shut waterproof box at the tower base.

The winch says 90A load and I charge the battery maybe once in 2 months depending on use which is infrequent. The tower usually stays with all the sections just overlapping, I guess 2/3rds height, maybe fully extended once a week or so.

The charge comes from the shack some 20m away using 7 core trailer cable which is cheap, ISTR I used one big core, the white + 2 smaller ones for one leg and the other 4 together for the other leg.

Not been a problem yet, it just works. Certainly the leisure battery wasn't cheap but it does the job and remembering to charge isn't a disaster with a leisure type unit.

It might not help but I can only tell you what I am doing which works well.

Richard.

[Radio Wrangler]

As an application it falls nearer engine starter batteries than deep discharge leisure batteries. Winches can take dramatic surges of current getting a load moving and breaking stiction. The starting torque you feel on the handle of a manual winch on a telescopic tower shows this.

Engine starter (=car) batteries are made to survive massive current transients but are never deeply discharged because the generator comes on right after starting. They are designed for long term float charge and also for hundred amp charging currents rapidly restoring their charge.

Most radio applications are much better served by deep discharge leisure batteries than car types, but I think car types (larger ones) may be a good fit here.

David

[Panrock]

Thanks for the answers. As a novice to extendable masts and as a quick aside - do all such masts include some sort of 'detent' to prevent over-extension and ensure some safe overlap remains between the sections? Otherwise, leave the motor running too long and things could get decidedly wobbly!

[Radio Wrangler]

The manual winch ones don't. They reach a point where the cable ceases to have any remaining drop at the top to be reduced, by virtue of where it anchors to the sliding section. You could wind the cable up to a point where it snaps in theory. But it's very bad practice to leave a load supported on cables, there is a latch which engages like a ratchet when the extending section is at the top. You then loosen the cable to lower the section until the latch supports its weight. You leave the winch set with little tension on the cable, but also little slack so that should the latch fail, the drop won't be very far before the cable takes over.

The latch pawl is controlled by a light rope from ground level. The pawl is shaped with a slight notch in it, so when weight is on it, you cannot pull the rope and release it. You need the hand winch cable to lift the mast a little, to free the pawl, then you pull and hold the pawl rope while you start winding the extending section down on the hand winch. You can let go of the pawl rope once the striker bar is low enough. Some masts strike the pawl onto any crossbar brace on the extending section and the pawl needs pulling throughout the lowering process.

The motorised version I saw was simply a manual mast with the sort off winch seen on vehicles added. You still have to do the full business with latches and release ropes, all it does is save you the manual work. Others could just hold the mast on the winch cable, but any positive lock would require additional actuators and complex controls. You need to look at these things on a case by case basis.

Telescopic masts are rattley there is some slop in the guidance of the extending section. Rattling in the wind creates wear and takes the galvanised coat off of steelwork in some places. You still have to grease certain parts and also to apply lubricant/protective grease to the wire ropes.

If the mast is also a tilt-over type, look into the tilting process. Usually it is a second (manual) winch. There are various schemes for smaller masts which uses a single winch, but these come with a number of disadvantages.

David

[Panrock]

Lots of useful info there, David. Thank you.

Back to the question of the battery type. This appears to be non-critical. Though the type intended today for 'stop start' type cars might perhaps be particularly suitable, since 'multiple short, heavy discharges' is rather like the pattern to be expected during mast usage (?).

Steve

[jjl]

Be aware that the required charging regime for start / stop car batteries may be different to traditional lead plus liquid acid car batteries. I believe that all start / stop batteries are of absorbent glass mat (AGM) construction and at least some use silver calcium chemistry.

John

[Bazz4CQJ]

I get the impression that there is more than one approach to producing start-stop batteries. Some of them definitely look as though they need "smart" charging.

From what's been said, it looks like the requirement here doesn't need anything "special" and special always comes at a price. You might even think about choosing a battery type the same as your car uses; that could in very handy on the odd but dire occasion?

B

[Panrock]

Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ

I get the impression that there is more than one approach to producing start-stop batteries. Some of them definitely look as though they need "smart" charging.

'Nuff said! I'll keep it simple. A good old lead-acid battery.

Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ

From what's been said, it looks like the requirement here doesn't need anything "special" and special always comes at a price. You might even think about choosing a battery type the same as your car uses; that could in very handy on the odd but dire occasion?

Good idea!

Steve

[G6Tanuki]

I would go for a leisure type battery and a smart charger. A car battery is designed to deliver massive current (700 or 800 amps) for a few seconds rather than 100 amps for minutes Like a winch needs.

A leisure battery will probably survive better when you forget to charge it too.

I have Yuasa 80 amphour leisure batteries here which happily power a WS19HP that sucks 100A or so when spinning up the rotary converters!

I use a Lithium iron (yes iron) phosphate battery for my motorcycle, direct replacement for lead acid, works a treat. Maybe one of those, small, light and a bit expensive. Bike batteries are notorious for failing because the designers think they are used in warm weather only.

[James Duncan]

I just use the portable car starting battery pack that I bought from Halfords years ago and hook it in when required, these packs have a built in charger and often also a compressor.

[Richard - F4VPR]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

I would go for a leisure type battery and a smart charger. A car battery is designed to deliver massive current (700 or 800 amps) for a few seconds rather than 100 amps for minutes Like a winch needs.

A leisure battery will probably survive better when you forget to charge it too.

I have Yuasa 80 amphour leisure batteries here which happily power a WS19HP that sucks 100A or so when spinning up the rotary converters!

I would agree, I believe some of the leisure battery info on here is incomplete, you need to look at the better makes and the specs because they are quite capable of huge starting loads and currents, generally you simply over-size to that used in a vehicle start application.

There must be almost millions of leisure type batteries around the world standing for months at a time in boats but starting quite large engines.

Optima yellow top are specifically dual purpose, and expensive.

The Yuasa 100Ah (wet) leisure battery here sits in a waterproof container at the base of the tower powering the Superwinch 4000 which is basically a starter motor and an epicyclic gearbox.

It is charged through some 60ft of 7 core trailer cable (cheap) with 4 cores and 2 + the bigger white core strapped from a bench 15A 14.1V set PSU, it never takes more than 5A owing to the cable resistance and I charge when the winch "seems" a little slower than usual.

I have absolutely no fixed regime for battery maintenance, it relies on the "roundtuit" principle..

It's been doing that now for 9 years with no problems.

R.