This forum

[AC/HL]

One point, If money is taken we may need a Treasurer and some oversight. Unless it is pennies, I would assume that there are Formalities, if not Legalities.

[Robert Darwent]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

I give up. Are you really accusing me of lying? Why would I do that? Where's the benefit to me? It's responses like this that make me just want to walk away from the whole business.

I won't be posting again in this thread.

No one is accusing anyone of lying Paul. Paul_RK and myself were simply asking the obvious, also previously asked by Jeffrey (ppppenguin) a couple of times as well. I genuinely have no posts that require deletion due to your stated criteria, in any event certainly not 160. So we were both asking clarification as to what else must have been 'skipped' and then deleted.

Put another way and to use Paul_RK's example, are we all expected to believe that Paul Stenning's loss of 2500 posts was solely due to illegiblity, abuse and lack of meaningful content? Clearly not, so the inevitable and reasonable question asking just what content has been lost recently.

Regards

[Robert Darwent]

Originally Posted by Paul_RK

Other members without responsibilities for moderation may well be completely at a loss for how and when they might have made hundreds of meaningless, irrelevant, illegible or abusive posts, or participated in such threads.

Exactly my position and thoughts as well Paul.

Regards

[Rejectostat]

I agree with many points made by pppenguin, I too find it somewhat surprising that Jeffrey can have made in excess of 3000 posts not worthy of retention. I also agree with his comments concerning governance. Paul Stenning is described on the footer of each of his posts as the “Forum Owner“, but I would suggest the Forum is “owned” by the contributors. Paul is a facilitator of hardware and software services to support the Forum (and we are all grateful that he has undertaken this role for the last few years).

In the last few months there have been several threads with much discussion about the Moderation policies and rules of the Forum, the frequency of these threads in recent times suggests there is a sizeable level of unhappiness about the current management philosophy of the Forum. I did not post to any of those threads, instead in recent years I have simply stopped contributing to the Forum at all. I also suspect that quite a few others have simply reduced their input into the Forum judging from what I have heard anecdotally, particularly due to disquiet at the direction of the Forum lately. In the recent thread about spelling several members resigned, and indeed Paul and other Moderators often write something along the lines that “if you don’t like the way the Forum is run, go somewhere else”.

For the foregoing reasons I would support the Forum seeking funding from somewhere else, the BVWS being the obvious solution (though the BVWS may not want to be involved). The current BVWS Committee has an excellent reputation, and may bring valuable management input into the evolution of the Forum. Fortunately Paul is already ideally placed to be the main driver of this as he is already a Committee Member of the BVWS.

I support the idea of a Paypal donation system to help defray Forum costs, with the backup financial strength of the BVWS or other organisation. Membership of the BVWS should not be a requirement to joining the Forum community, though there may be “BVWS Members Only” areas of the board (though off-hand I can’t think what would need to go in such an area).

As it stands, one person and a team selected by that one person is deciding what is discarded for ever, Forum policies etc, and I think the wealth of information available here is a too valuable resource to be determined by one individual, bearing in mind the information itself is contributed by thousands of others.

Paul and the moderation team have done a great job starting and running the Forum over the years, but the time has perhaps come for an accountable team of management to run the Forum, rather than the current decisions taken without reference or notice to the contributors, and a request to go elsewhere if we subsequently dare to disagree with what is happening to “our“ Forum.

[Patrick Dixon]

I suppose it's inevitable that on a forum for collectors, some will get vexed when their post 'collection' counts are reduced ;-)

Surely we can all agree, that in addition to threads/posts which may have valuable content, there's a great deal of stuff (in the Member's News and Selling/Wanted sections for example) that simply doesn't stand the test of time? Surely there's no problem with ditching threads in those sections automatically - after a reasonable period of time, even if it does reduce our 'valuable' post counts?

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon

I suppose it's inevitable that on a forum for collectors, some will get vexed when their post 'collection' counts are reduced ;-)

Surely we can all agree, that in addition to threads/posts which may have valuable content, there's a great deal of stuff (in the Member's News and Selling/Wanted sections for example) that simply doesn't stand the test of time? Surely there's no problem with ditching threads in those sections automatically - after a reasonable period of time, even if it does reduce our 'valuable' post counts?

I don't care a about losing post count. I'm not sure it's a badge of honour to have wasted this much time at the keyboard.

I would disgree with you about news/sales/wants threads. Unless there is overwhleming pressure on storage capacity which seems unlikely it's better to keep them. Partly because it's actually more work to delete them than to keep them, but mostly because there is some useful stuff in there for future generations. Historic pricing info for a start. I'm no expert but my understanding is that within reasonable limits database loading is caused by amount of traffic rather than total size. So there should be no technical reason for deletion.

I can't speak for other forums but I understand that RMorg has been formally cosntituted as a foundation with explicit policies regarding keeping of data. UKVRR is based on history, we are forever urging people not to throw away documents or artefacts, yet we are throwing away our own history. The 3000 odd posts I made that have been deleted may have been a load of rubbish but I feel a loss of trust when I find that they have been discarded. I don't care about the count, you could abolish post counts for all I care, I do care about the unspoken contract between contributors and forum owners to keep contributions safe and available.

[ThePillenwerfer]

I wasn't aware that there was an "unspoken contract between contributors and forum owners to keep contributions safe and available." I wouldn't expect posts here, or on any web-site, to stand for all time.

I've always regarded web-sites as ephemeral and if I find something of especial interest I copy it there and then. Future researches may well be pleased at NOT having to wade through the "My cat's had kittens/I've got a new job/I've moved" threads.

Whoever owns and runs this forum, be it an individual, a committee or even a fully commercial company is going to have to impose rules and policies which aren't going to suit everybody. There has been similar bleating on Friends Reunited after they changed their site.

I honestly can't see what the fuss is about: no one has died or had their livelihood put in jeopardy. If the deletion of a few inaccessible posts on a hobby forum is the biggest cause of distress in peoples lives they are darn lucky.

- Joe

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer

.....no one has died or had their livelihood put in jeopardy. If the deletion of a few inaccessible posts on a hobby forum is the biggest cause of distress in peoples lives they are darn lucky.

Joe, on this, and this alone, I agree with you totally.

I will now stand back while the DAC90 destroyers seek out every last specimen to put in the crusher. Again nobody will die. We'll follow that with all the HMV and Marconiphone pre-war tellies. Still nobody will die though if they come for mine I can't vouch for the aftermath.

The ephemerality of the web is a big challenge to the library and archive community. I like to feel that our business here at UKVRR is preservation of history and feel a kinship with the library and archive folk.

[Paul_RK]

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer

I honestly can't see what the fuss is about: no one has died or had their livelihood put in jeopardy. If the deletion of a few inaccessible posts on a hobby forum is the biggest cause of distress in peoples lives they are darn lucky.

- Joe

Mine would be completely, utterly and spectacularly OT. We're talking about the forum because that's where we all are and one of the primary things we have in common

Paul

[ThePillenwerfer]

Originally Posted by PPPPenguin

The ephemerality of the web is a big challenge to the library and archive community.

And it that, Jeffrey, I agree with you. That's why there's still an important role for things like The Bulletin and good old-fashioned books.

- Joe

[Sean Williams]

Wow some seriously heavy stuff!

Its an internet forum, here for a load of people that have too much spare time to share experience, and help each other.

It isn't a historical repository, it also is not a serious place for research. it is a group of opinions expressed by people, some experience based, some not so experience based, and some that are just down right laughable.

The BVWS, and other organisations are better placed for the sort of historical archive that is being asked for.

Not once when I was moderating did I think, "cor this stuff is earth shatteringly important, I must ensure that this information is preserved ad infinitum"

Lighten up everyone, boil it down to basics - we are just a bunch of nutters that won't let the past stay there....

[Robert Darwent]

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

so the total number of posts in The Skip was something like 46000

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer

If the deletion of a few inaccessible posts on a hobby forum is the biggest cause of distress in peoples lives they are darn lucky.

With all due respect Joe, it isn't "a few inaccessible posts". If Darren's earlier estimate is in any way accurate it is comparable to the two other alternative UK based vintage radio forums entire contents combined and then some.

Regards

[Paul_RK]

Originally Posted by Sean Williams

Not once when I was moderating did I think, "cor this stuff is earth shatteringly important, I must ensure that this information is preserved ad infinitum"

Well, yes. In exactly the same spirit those responsible for 1960s broadcasting mostly didn't for a moment think that television dramas, comedy shows, least of all pop music, were something for which they had a duty of care or that they would be of interest to anybody fifty years hence.

What happens here isn't significant on that scale, but the possibility exists to archive posts, and from all that's being said costs would be minimal and time would even be saved by so doing. Books and the Bulletin simply aren't a viable alternative to what happens here, where hundreds upon hundreds of models of equipment are discussed, repairs and restorations followed through and documented, memories related, circumstances and attitudes put on record which even a weekly Bulletin of the current size, a non-viable proposition if ever there were one, wouldn't be able to accommodate.

Paul

[bluepilot]

I run a website myself (nothing to do with electronics). Sometime ago I reached the limits of what cheap hosting could provide and given that the site wasn't making any money I wasn't prepared to spend any more. I decided to try hosting it myself. It turned out to be very easy. An old PC with Linux and Apache installed and that was about it really. Admittedly the uplink was a bit slow but the only cost was the electricity to run the PC. Maybe a solution along those lines would be possible.

[ThePillenwerfer]

Fair point, Robert. Deciding what to keep and what to ditch isn't a job I'd fancy but I don't see how EVERYTHING can be kept for EVER. It's true that we don't want the baby thrown out with the bath-water but we don't want it to drown either; it's already been said that the bigger the database is the longer it takes to access and the more, often irrelevant, results searches bring up.

What I meant was that until a few days ago the existence of this skipped material wasn't even widely known about and the fact it has been deleted makes no PRACTICAL difference to we normal members.

By the way, I've just been able to make a correction to my previous post. Has the time limit for this been lengthened or removed? If so, thanks.

- Joe

[evingar]

Originally Posted by bluepilot

I run a website myself (nothing to do with electronics). Sometime ago I reached the limits of what cheap hosting could provide and given that the site wasn't making any money I wasn't prepared to spend any more. I decided to try hosting it myself. It turned out to be very easy. An old PC with Linux and Apache installed and that was about it really. Admittedly the uplink was a bit slow but the only cost was the electricity to run the PC. Maybe a solution along those lines would be possible.

My sister does this with a commercial site she runs - An old PC called "1Pound_Server". As you say, dead cheap to do and fine for her very specialist site (day lilies), prob is, more than a hand full of users and the thing grinds to a standstill. I'm no expert, but I think to host something the size of this forum well, would need a very fast connection and some decent hardware.

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer

What I meant was that until a few days ago the existence of this skipped material wasn't even widely known about and the fact it has been deleted makes no PRACTICAL difference to we normal members.

One member, in a private communication, told me that a post he had made with useful tech info on electrostatic tweeters had been lost. Whetehr it was invisible or discarded is hardly relevant. This is a topic that comes up from time to time and so the discarded post would still be useful. I have no idea if this is a one-off accident of editing or the tip of an iceberg. I doubt if there any way of knowing.

That's why editorial decisions like this are a bad idea. It's also a lot easier not to make them in the first place. SAves precious moderator time too.

As Joe, said, nobody will die and perhaps I'm inflating the worth of what we write but when the human cost of doing the editing is greater than the negligible resource cost of keeping the stuff I don't really see that any further case needs to be made.

Some of us may not care about what gets discarded. Others of us do. Since we've already established that leaving alone is easier and cheaper than culling the policy should be clear.

If we should ever get to the point where gigabytes become terabytes or petabytes then it might be time to reconsider. I just don't see UKVRR outrunning the cost of storage anytime soon.

[ThePillenwerfer]

The other thing that perhaps should be addressed, nasty as it is, is what happens to the forum if Paul steps under a 'bus tomorrow?

Personally I like the fact that there's a clear 'Top Man' who we can praise or blame as appropriate but he, like the rest of us, won't be around for ever.

- Joe

[wireful3]

I think the most serious problem is finding the money to let Paul increase the hosting capability so that he does not have to close the Forum. As Bill AC/HL has said there are problems associated with some of the ways of solving this. Joe said earlier that no one had died or had their livelihood put in jeopardy. That is generally true but it is affecting Paul's business.

There are many members of the Forum me included,who are also members of the BVWS.
This leads me to the conclusion that there is value in this Forum as it exists, as a supplement to the BVWS.

With regard to policy on saving everything this is another issue and I would go along with Joe and Sean. To be fair Jeff, we are not talking about the wanton wrecking of CRTs and valves that some admit to. The DAC90 crushers are also people who threw them out because they genuinely had no use for them at all. They did not think any further than "we are releasing some storage space".

I know that you Paul RK have an impressive amount of data and a very big and useful collection. I guess though, you applied some judgement about what you kept when you acquired it. I stand to be corrected but I doubt whether you kept every daily paper and all the junk mail receipts for everything, regardless of topic.

If some information is inadvertently lost ,sad, but I weigh this against the real possibility in my case, of missing something important because of the overload of reading through loads of junk and the inevitable diversions it produces. If the storage is no problem then perhaps it is useful to keep the skip for others to analyse but I think it is a valuable service the moderators provide by filtering what is presented on the current basis.

[bluepilot]

Originally Posted by evingar

My sister does this with a commercial site she runs - An old PC called "1Pound_Server". As you say, dead cheap to do and fine for her very specialist site (day lilies), prob is, more than a hand full of users and the thing grinds to a standstill. I'm no expert, but I think to host something the size of this forum well, would need a very fast connection and some decent hardware.

Without knowing the statistics it's not possible to say definitely but I can imagine that with forum posts being mainly text and limited-sized images the bandwidth should stay within reasonable limits. Terabyte-sized disks are cheap nowadays. I'd be surprised if the forum takes a terabyte. Obviously some sort of redundancy would be good but most PC firmware nowadays supports RAID.