This forum

[gingpeakin]

I find this forum an invaluable source of knowledge and a means to contact like minded people passionate about technology of all kinds. Priceless in my view. I'd be happy to contribute - in a way that is these days sadly very unfashionable - 'from each according to his means - to each according to his needs'.
Apologies if I've misquoted that but it's been a while...

Ging

[Darren-UK]

Originally Posted by JoshWard

Would this help free up the server?

We do, at infrequent intervals, have a clear out of long-inactive members. Many such members come here to ask things like "Just found a radiogram in a deceased relatives shed, is it worth anything?". Then, having received answers, they vanish into oblivion. That's just one example, people join for a variety of one-off reasons. Don't misunderstand me, such people are perfectly welcome and entitled to come here but are examples of the type of account which we do have purges on.

For various reasons, some of which remain a mystery, other people create duplicate accounts and this is not infrequent. It's been policy for some time now to remove duplicate accounts.

We have an automated system for preventing known spammers from joining. That saves a not inconsiderable amount of bogus accounts from being created. Some spammers still do get through though, some of these get as far as creating posts. These posts never get onto public view though (this is one reason new members initial posts are moderated), but instead get placed into a non public section which we call The Skip.

The Skip is where, as well as spam posts, offensive, irrelevant, OT, illiterate and other unwanted and no longer relevant posts and threads go. Until yesterday there was 1073 pages of threads in The Skip. A page contains around 20 threads, so the total number of posts in The Skip was something like 46000 - many of which were literally years old. So in giving those figures it will hopefully be appreciated just how much pressure was being put on the server.

There have recently been grumbles about us clearing out those skipped threads and posts, based upon the argument that 'everything should be kept as it could be invaluable'. Trust me, none of it was invaluable and none of it was worth keeping.

Much, but by no means all, of the work involved in clearing out The Skip was undertaken by myself and due to server load considerations that work took many hours to complete.

We have also done some clearing out of threads in the moderators section which, of course, is not on public view. As many of you will have noticed, Paul Stenning has also made a few other changes - and all this has been ongoing while Paul is in the midst of moving house.

Going back to the clearing out of threads, there is more which we intend to do in order to help the loading on the server but it's on hold for now while server loadings are monitored.

I've noticed myself, since the clearouts described above, that outages, database errors and so on have dropped significantly and hopefully the members will have noticed the improvement too. We, the moderators, are often criticised/accused of sitting here with nothing better to do than pick on people. As might now be realised, that accusation couldn't be further from the truth and for some time now it's been a constant battle just to keep the forum up and running - never mind deal with all the more routine stuff as well. At the end of the day Paul Stenning is 'the boss' and all these problems with keeping the forum up and running have left him - and the moderators - extremely frustrated.

So the recent tweaks and clearing out of server-cluttering stuff (like The Skip) has, fingers crossed, given us a period of respite. However, there are dozens of new members joining every day and the number of new posts each day runs well into three figures. Therefore although our recent work has given us some respite, the daily input of new members and posts will mean we'll soon be back to square one again if something isn't done - and getting something done is what Paul is looking into now.

Thanks for your patience and please keep the suggestions for the future coming.

[thermionic]

Well, I think one thing has been established, we have to pay!

In my opinion, an annual subscription is favourable. Donations are great at this juncture, but 12 - 18 months down the line would so many of us be as enthusiastic if we had to keep coughing up because the donations have fizzled out, and not covering the costs?

I propose that any new member is allowed, say 2 - 4 posts free of charge, and if they wish to stay, then they will have to pay the annual subscription. This will not exclude anyone.

An annual subscription marks a level playing field for all. The donation route could be a haphazard and un accountable mish mash.

SimonT.

[Richard]

Hi

I am happy to pay, donate, whatever it takes to keep the forum running

Richard

[Steve_P]

What about people who can't afford it! Seriously, I have a problem with money, as I am disabled and the pittance the Government gives me has to cover everything. Same with people who are unemployed or are students.

Cheers,

Steve P.

[Panrock]

My tenner's waiting. It seems to me a voluntary donation system, retaining control by the existing management, would be administratively simpler and quicker to set up than an arrangement with the BVWS (say).

Another board of which I'm a member operates such a system. When you've paid your tenner, your name changes colour - a nice little touch of recognition, and you get an increased private message allowance. Otherwise all genuine subscribers are made equally welcome, whether paid or not.

Steve

[Top Cap]

It's funny I should catch onto this thread as I have just left the Isle of Wight storm detector website. Indeed they have also had to move to a dedicated server and have been asking for donations. I only visit this site on a very occasional basis and usually only when there are thunderstorms about. However I thought I would send them £25 as a help and then by pure coincidence, I find a similar problem here. Well I visit this Forum fairly regular, I don't post too often as I usually get shouted upon. Not blaming anyone here, it happens on other sites I have tried to interact with, so I graciously accept now that my 50+ years in electronics obviously amounts to nothing. Anyway, I would gladly push a donation to the Forum if and when it was needed, Pay-pal is an excellent way for me and I do like the idea of a bar graph barometer to show when more cash is required to top up into the Green. Maybe we could add some fun by having a live AVO Valve Tester meter scale showing accumulation as GOOD or DONATE

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by Colin

I think that limiting access to paying members only will diminish the forum and if sufficient funds are raised from the core membership there's no need.

I agree wholeheartedly with Colin on this and would be more than happy to stump up to keep the forum as open as possible.

Cheers,

GJ

[robjkmannering]

Originally Posted by Steve_P

What about people who can't afford it! Seriously, I have a problem with money, as I am disabled and the pittance the Government gives me has to cover everything. Same with people who are unemployed or are students.

Cheers,

Steve P.

Sorry Steve, somes plight is easy to overloook. Having re-read Paul's post, it would seem that we need several hundred pounds (7-800?).
With an active user base of over 300, that would equate to less than 3 pounds annualy or less than 6 pence a week.
I well remember my student days although I am a little surprised I can given the ammount of beer I consumed on my weekly six pence!
Rob

[Omegaman]

Hi All,

I'm in agreement with all those that suggest a voluntary donation system. It would be good to have a red, yellow, green scale/meter on the home page to show the status of donations made.
Although my family income is low, I would gladly donate to keep this valuable forum open. I'm sure I could manage a minimum of £10 a year. I wouldn't be able to donate via Paypal as I don't have an account but could do BACS or a cheque instead.
I don't post much (as my knowledge is far inferior to most on here) but I spend hours (so the wife says!) reading and learning.

[marcus 3500]

I would be more than happy to pay to keep the vast amount of knowledge here alive.

SWMBO says we can afford £25 per annum, but I have no paypal account. If any other type of payment cheque, postal order can be sent, then count us in.

Regards,
Marcus.

[paulsherwin]

Thanks to everyone who has made constructive suggestions so far. It's good to know that, in principle, a large proportion of the active membership is willing to make some sort of contribution to the forum running costs. I don't think it's envisaged that anybody will be asked to pay as much as £25 per year.

Ultimately a decision on the future of the forum will be made by Paul Stenning, who doesn't want to see it closed any more than most members despite moments of great frustration. Any change doesn't have to happen imminently, as the work we have all done over the last few days has significantly reduced server loading. However, it's clear that the present hosting arrangements can't continue in the long term.

[Tazman1966]

It's fairly simple to me. If I hadn't stumbled upon this forum several years ago, my old hobby would have remained just that. An old dormant hobby. This forum re-awoke it and I would be more than happy to donate if it meant that the forum could continue.

[M0TGX Terry]

My position is exactly the same as that outlined by Tas. If I hadn't found this forum I wouldn't have been able to revive my old and dormant hobby. I retired a few months ago so I no longer need to pay £120 + per annum to my old professional institution. I would be more than willing to use part of this saving to pay a membership fee to keep the forum going. I don't post much but visit several times a day and find the wealth of knowledge both fascinating and informative (even the stuff I can't understand, which is a lot). Long may it continue.
Terry

[Nickthedentist]

I too would be more than willing to contribute a modest annual sum to ensure this wonderful forum's continued existance.

Nick.

[Gordonc]

I'm with Nick! I would happily contribute as I have learned a lot from this forum.
It would be a crying shame to lose it!

Gordon.

[M0AFJ, Tim]

I'm more than happy to throw in some money to keep the site running. The enjoyment I get from reading the posts and the memories they bring back far outweighs a few quid. Another site I use has a PayPal donate button, seems to work well

Tim M0AFJ working in W6 land.

[Wage Slave]

I too would be more than happy to make a donation. The amount of expertise and help freely offered here is astonishing.

The existing server would presumably offer increased capacity if asked. There is clearly a significant willingness to donate. So, as problems go, I don't see this one as terribly intractable.

[ppppenguin]

It seems that there are a lot of generous folk round here but the other aspects that concern both the OP and myself have rather got lost.

With the exception of the OP, Paul in #6, my own posts, RadioDave in #57 and Darren in #62 the other issues have not been addressed. My apologies if I have missed something when sifting through the responses. PS: While I was posting, WageSlave in #78 has also said something that reinforces RadioDave in #57.

As I have said in my contributions, I would expect money and technical hosting issues to be the easy bit. It is clear that the money side is solvable and I'm sure the tech side is too, perhaps by migrating to different forum software that is more capable of handling a large forum. I have seen IPB (Invision Power Board) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invision_Power_Board used elsewhere but have no idea about cost, ease of use for owner/moderators etc. It looks very different to VBulletin but ultimately seems to work well for the user. Again I stress this is a technical matter and hence relatively easy to resolve.

Now to the harder and more important stuff to do with governance and policy. I'll make another attempt on the issues.

ACCOUNTABILITY
In #57 Radio Dave has raised an additional point, accountability, which I had overlooked. As soon as money is involved, even if by voluntary donation, I would expect to see this properly accounted for. Firstly in the narrow technical sense of a basic statement of the accounts though this need not initially be to the same formal standard we would expect from (say) the BVWS. At this stage we are still speculating about the basic annual operating cost which has not yet been disclosed. Secondly and perhaps more importantly in how the relationship between the users and owners is defined. This takes us inevitably to governance.

GOVERNANCE
Maybe this is a bit of a high flown term to use for an internet forum. To put it rather crudely, the present model is no longer adequate. While on the surface we are generally happy to see a clean and tidy forum and appreciate the efforts made by the owner and moderators there are clearly problems. I don't have much expertise here but I'll have a go on a couple of points and hope that others can expand and refine.

DATA LOSS
The recent cull (10000+ threads?) and routine tidying have dumped data on a massive scale. In #62 Darren has given a glimpse of current policy which I would argue is not fit for purpose. It is possible to make a reasonable argument that ALL threads should be kept, with the exception of outright spam and abuse. Threads that are currently deleted would simply sit unloved in a dusty corner. I attempted to discuss this, with an element of humour, in a deleted thread. A quote from what I said:

What worries me is how much is being cleaned out. Where has the line been drawn? Please excuse me for a little pondering.

Sales and wanted: Completed transactions are of no use to anyone and can be culled. Or can they? They might be of use to historians of the future researching how a load of vintage wireless enthusiasts behaved in the early 21st century. Or is that simply taking too grand a view of our own worth?

Event announcements, FCS: Rather as above.

Anthing else (unless I've overlooked something): Now we're getting into the realms of editing real content. If Fred Bloggs posted a half hearted thread about restoring an Albush RTV999 back in 2005 should it be deleted? I would argue not. The next person who googles "Albush RTV999" might be glad of the information, however half hearted.

THE UNSPOKEN CONTRACT
I partially addressed this, again with a little humour, in the same deleted thread:

Accidental loss of content happens in the net, just as anywhere else. Something that Wayback Machine and others are trying to address. This is different, it's deliberate destruction of content. Some of us might even like to know and see which of our posts have been deleted. If only for nostalgia, something we do a lot of here. That Ultramurph Fluxogram (or was it a Mullarphone Eximate?) that I tried sell back in 2006 might not be important to anyone else but I had unhappy memories of it.

There is a sort of unspoken contract implied here. We make our contributions in good faith and don't expect them to be chucked in the bin. There is a "where do you draw the line" problem in making choices. The internet does not suffer from the same limitations as printed media. If the problem arises of the forum drowning in its own excrement (bad term, I'm stuck for anything better at the moment) then either use a better forum or create a rubbish tip (Darren used the word "skip") separate from the forum where we can go rummaging with the help of search engines. In a PM to me, one member lamented the apparent loss of useful technical information to do with (ISTR) electrostatic tweeters.

Darren's work (post #62 again) is laudable but ultimately a lot of effort to achieve an unsatisfactory result. It has also resulted in a partial breakdown of trust, though I emphasise that this was not his intention as I'm sure he acted in good faith.

RULES
Now I'm going into a really sensitive area of governance. The present forum structure is very simple; the owner has full rights to do anything without giving any reason. I would argue that this is no longer adequate for the scale of the forum and the amount of knowledge contained within. I am glad that Paul Stenning has now acknowledged (post #6) that the structure of UKVRR is a legitimate subject for discussion.

DISQUIET and DISSENT
Again ths is sensitive. We all know who the "awkward squad" are. Poking the lion with a pointy stick can produce unfortunate results, as Young Albert discovered. Other forums with different rules now exist and anyone is free to use them if they don't like the rules here but the size and dominance of UKVRR means that it has special responsibilities. Very few make trouble for the sake of it. This thread and others related to forum governance (I hate that word but can't find anything better) are symptoms of underlying problems. While nothing in life is problem free, I hope we can use commonsense and goodwill to make improvements.

[G8UWM-MildMartin]

I'd like to pay for some semi-commercial ads;
I have bought quantities of many "useful" items in bulk to obtain quantity price breaks or get the total value of goods to exceed the postage from overseas.
I believe it to be unacceptable to list them under members' ads. but they might be a useful resource to members.
Perhaps commercial advertisers could be by vetted application only and declined without reason.
I fully understand this could have ramifications that outweigh the benefits, and that this is probably why there isn't already such a section.