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Old 15th Jul 2016, 9:58 am   #21
SeanStevens
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

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Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes View Post

There is a nonetheless a certain legitimacy in finding the Achilles' heel of a commercial product, where the manufacturer went just a bit too far in the tar-saving drive and spoiled the ship, and correcting it. This conflicts with historical conservation practice but that is not the point in question here.
This is so true of many walks of life.

Radio controlled car racing has a very similar concept. The entire vehicle can be purchased for say £70, but to make it durable, handle better or make it quicker requires modification. Finding the 'weakest' point, where the cost has been cut by low grade parts was a lot of the fun. Buying and fitting these 'Hop-ups' (as they are known) have become a well known phenomena.

And it wasn't always that costly either. Ball-raced bearings rather than nylon bearings – a ‘hot’ motor (normally less turns) and a decent speed controller could turn a ‘toy’ into a race winner. At a cost mind.

Again, a purist would not dream of adding these pieces – but these purists rarely ran the models they made! They were destined for a shelf, and if they were ever to be used they would normally break immediately they were used vigorously!

This is rather like keeping the old capacitors in a radio but never daring to turn it on!

SEAN
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 11:01 am   #22
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

I think the problem is that people suddenly think "I know lets buy a record player" and when they buy it (usually a one valve job UL84 /UY85 or EL84) finding the cartridge is duff and no longer obtainable or will damage their records ETC none of which was a problem when they last owned a record player before records were stereo.
Of course they are confused and sometimes have wasted their money or will waste more money only to find that is still only sounds like a record player when most things these days including car stereo's sound much better.
They won't be told.
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 11:03 am   #23
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

There's a tremendous pent up demand for a modern ceramic cartridge with a known manufacturer standing behind it. If only Audio Technica would make one. In the mean time we're stuck with no name copies or NOS both of dubious quality (but for different reasons).

The nearest thing to this at the moment is the Japanese Chuo Denshi fitted to some of the Croselys etc, but even these are being cloned in China!
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 11:16 am   #24
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

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There's a tremendous pent up demand for a modern ceramic cartridge with a known manufacturer standing behind it
I am not convinced there is a tremendous demand, a small niche one, yes. Anyone who wants to listen to records as a long term hobby will at least be buying something that won't wreck the records. I am not convinced that many of the 50/60 record players being bought, even if well repaired will be in use that long, the very poor quality new record players probably even an even shorter time.
There will be some but I think the vast majority will end up in an an attic.

note. my track record on forecasting trends in abysmal, but it's what I think.

Frank
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 11:57 am   #25
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Back in the 1970s, old record players were worthless junk; or -- to those so inclined -- a cheap way to have a bit of fun experimenting, without ruining anything valuable. Record changers and crystal and ceramic cartridges were still being made.

Of course, now some of those record players are becoming desirable again as fashion items, and this changes the equation a bit .....
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 12:17 pm   #26
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

I have never fitted a MM cartidge in a portable but have fitted one into the UA14 in the stereo radiogram and it has made quite a difference.
I do know that connecting a Sanyo SX W10,square speaker, to my Dansette Popular,while repairing it and to confirm the speaker in the Popular was faulty gave the Dansette a much better quality and was quite impressive.
I have been playing with the idea of fitting a G800 plus preamp into my PYE black box. I know,because I did it years ago that a BSR UA6 will cope quite happily with a G800
Steve
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 12:34 pm   #27
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

It's a matter of degree really. On the one hand, you might want to fit a magnetic cartridge to a portable for better record wear and a supply for the pre-amp is usually easy enough to come by. It's done for practical reasons and it isn't irreversible. It depends on the reason for doing it. If it's to save your records from excessive wear then fair enough but don't go thinking it'll instantly turn your Dansette Popular into hi fi.

On the other hand, you might feel the uncontrollable urge to gut the cabinet of a Bush DAC90, fit a chip amp and an i-pod and think you're an engineering god. You're not if you do that but decorum dictates that I don't use the kind of words on this forum that I'd normally use to describe such people!

Regards,
Paul
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 12:46 pm   #28
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Do magnetic cartridges really cause less wear than ceramic ones?

I grew up listening to BSR SC12Hs and Sonotone 9TAHCs, and the records played therewith -- at least, the ones I still have -- still sound fine. Admittedly those were both excellent cartridges by the standards of the day .....
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 3:01 pm   #29
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

I have to admit I oversimplified a bit there. I meant for lower record wear (in certain cases) and stereo compatibility, availability of replacement styli etc. Obviously not all ceramic or crystal cartridges are record-chewers but a lot of the earlier ones are. I certainly wouldn't consider replacing a good 9TAHC with a magnetic cartridge, any improvement would be marginal at best and not worth the bother. But the Sonotone is one of the better examples. However, I might consider it if the original cartridge tracks at much over 5 grammes, assuming of course I can find a magnetic that will track happily in the record deck in question.

The BSR SC12H is another good ceramic although probably still a bit lacking compared to the Sonotone but again if it was in good health I'd generally see no point in replacing it with a magnetic. If it wasn't in good health I'd try to replace it with an identical one but they're hard to find now which brings another variable to bear on the matter. Both these cartridges depend heavily on the quality of whatever they're connected to but what a lot of people seem to be unable to grasp is the fact that if either cartridge doesn't sound good despite the rest of the system working as it should, then replacing it with a magnetic and a pre-amp will most likely sound even worse. This is because of deficiencies elsewhere in the unit. Portables are very often fitted with the most basic amplifier that will do the job. It'll never sound any good no matter what it's being fed by and no matter what speaker it's feeding into. Some people think anything can be "hot rodded" to hi fi standards. Obviously it can't.

Regards,
Paul
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 4:35 pm   #30
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Years ago I successfully upgraded the original crystal cartridge in my Garrard RC90 changer to a magnetic B&O tracking around 4 grams. Its higher compliance made a massive improvement to mistracking distortion on heavily modulated discs and, with the right preamp, gave a much flatter frequency response. It probably wasn't massively better than a Sonotone 9TAHC would have been though.

Regarding upgrades to the whole record player, I guess that you soon get into a spiral where one replacement demands another so that very soon, all you're left with is the cabinet - and then decide that even that isn't much good!

Martin
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 4:37 pm   #31
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Of the better Ceramic cartridges any experience with the Decca Deram?
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 5:11 pm   #32
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

A lot of people, including me, regard the funny old, bulbous Deram with its wobbly stylus, the best ceramic ever and a match for the basic MMs. I used one in a Goldring G102 deck to 'upgrade' my 1958 'Gothic' Decca Stereogram RP and the results were quite impressive.
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 5:35 pm   #33
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

The Decca DERAM was regarded by many as the best Ceramic cartridge ever made. It gives just 50mV output as a trade off against it's very wide bandwidth, so needs an appropriate high gain AF stage to cope. A typical triode AF stage would be insuffient.
I am heartened by some of these responses and all have been thoughtful.
I know my first Post may have irritated some, but is born out of some of my Customers' expectations and many Postings here, as how to make a quite adequate sounding Dansette "Major" into something that it can never be.....Edward
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 6:11 pm   #34
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Derams were widely used by the BBC.
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 8:25 pm   #35
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

I acquired a decca deram with a Garrard AT6 a little while back. Also had a sonotone 9 in another headshell. I never did try the Deram, but I did try and remove the stylus and couldnt seem to. Certainly an odd looking cartridge. These posts are encouraging me to try it now, I found the sonotone 9 very good but not quite entry level moving magnet to my ears
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 9:21 pm   #36
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

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I acquired a decca deram with a Garrard AT6 a little while back. Also had a sonotone 9 in another headshell. I never did try the Deram, but I did try and remove the stylus and couldnt seem to. Certainly an odd looking cartridge. These posts are encouraging me to try it now, I found the sonotone 9 very good but not quite entry level moving magnet to my ears
If I recall correctly the trick with the rather fragile Deram stylus removal is to very gently lever it away from the cartridge body, rather than pulling it out. Yes it will give a better result than the good Sonotone but, as Edward remarks, the output is relatively small. The tonearm of the AT6 should be able to track it fairly well and hopefully manage the ideal tracking weight of around 2.5g. Roger
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 9:25 pm   #37
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

If you need a new stylus - watch out for poor quality copies. The plastic stylus mount should be quite flexible (hence my 'wobbly' stylus comment). The poor copies have rigid mounts - and they sound awful!
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 9:57 pm   #38
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

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If you need a new stylus - watch out for poor quality copies.
Unfortunately most replacement styli tend to be poor and have returned many as faulty due to not even being remotely close to original spec.

A few years ago I came across a Goldring ceramic cartridge in a GL68, which might have been something like a CS90. Tracking at 3 to 4g it appeared to be of high compliance and for a ceramic had very low needle chatter. I think at the time it was comparable to the Deram and 9TAHC but also there was an elliptical stylus option.

Rich
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 10:27 pm   #39
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

Decca were confident enough of the tone arm of the first version of the AT6 to commission Garrard to make the DECCADEC - a SP25 Mark 1 variant using the same tone arm as the AT6/SP25 fitted with the DERAM cartridge. A Very competent deck! Edward
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Old 15th Jul 2016, 10:31 pm   #40
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Default Re: "UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

I have to confess that I once gutted a record player but that was back in the early 70's when they could be bought second-hand for peanuts. I originally thought it would sound quite good as it came with a push-pull UCL83 amp but it really sounded dreadful even after replacing the usual caps and trying a new cartridge...very little treble and rather 'thin'. The speaker was actually quite good and I felt that an 'upgrade' was in order so I built a Mullard 3-3 and fitted that inside the cabinet (plenty of room). I then fitted a Sonotone 9TAHC (wired for mono) in place of the TC8M originally fitted. The quality improvement was obvious. In fact it was so good, I decided that a stereo conversion was necessary so I built a second 3-3 in an external cabinet and fitted suitable sockets to the record player for connections. It ended up as a dual-function player.

For quality playing and parties etc it could be hooked up to the external amp and a couple of external (Celestion) speakers. For general playing in the bedroom where space was limited, it could be used as an ordinary record player in mono. I fitted a switch at the back so that when it was used on its own, the switch was turned to the 'mono' position so that both channels were paralleled.
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