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Old 16th Aug 2018, 12:12 am   #1
Skywave
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Question Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Intro.
Similar threads on this topic has been raised here before. Below is an extract from a post to such a thread by ms660 during Nov. 2015. Rather than add a post to that thread - which was more general in its range of sub-topics than my questions here - I thought it best to start a new thread.

I now have a newly-constructed timber shed in the back garden for D-I-Y activities (read: no 'radio /electronics' stuff: that happens elsewhere). It has an peak roof and is 15 ft. x 8 ft. with two non-opening windows (and a door, of course!). It is time to think about adding thermal insulation. (Heating and ventilation will be required, but that can wait for another thread).

Extract of post by ms660.
The best stuff for lining the outside of the studs is Tyveck, white side in.
If you want to insulate the inside, my choice would be Kingspan/Celotex/ Extratherm etc. If you tape the joints with aluminium tape and seal the edges to the studs with silicone rubber you can get away with not having to use a vapour barrier. If you use fibre glass/rockwool etc., you should install a vapour barrier before the internal lining is fitted. If you use foil-backed plasterboard for the lining you don't have to bother with a vapour barrier. If you use ordinary plasterboard then fit a vapour barrier: plasterboard is cheap.
Note: A breather membrane is not the same as a vapour barrier.

Obviously, a lot of that comes from relevant experience - of which I have none - and have never seen this work done in any shed. So please bear with me if some of my Qs. sound elementary: for this work, I am a raw beginner.

"Lining the outside of the studs": that I don't understand. What are the 'studs'? Is that what I refer to as the 'battens'? And the "outside" of them?

The inner walls of my shed are supported by vertically-positioned battens 34 mm. x 34 mm. The spacing between them is typically about 2 feet.

I now understand that I need a 'vapour barrier': is this glued (or other?) to the inner walls of the shed between the battens?

I've never heard of 'Kingspan', 'Celotex', etc. Presumably this is the thermal insulating material. Is such readily available from D-I-Y stores or should I visit a builder's yard? How to I keep this insulation in place between the battens?

For the final, inner skin I intend to use ordinary plasterboard - mainly on grounds of cost. But what about the joints where the edges of the plasterboard meet? Scrim tape and then a skim coat of plaster on all the walls - ditto the inner of the roof- and then paint? Would using 3 mm. plywood be cheaper overall?

Obviously, all of this work is going to cost a fair amount of £ - and, therefore, I'd like to get it right the first time! So, all constructive & helpful comments will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Al.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 1:05 am   #2
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

If you use Celotex/kingspan insulation boards, they have a foil vapour barrier already glued on during manufacturing, so they would be my choice and is in fact why they are used in modern building applications.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 7:57 am   #3
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

In my experience with two sheds using such insulation with a foil vapour barrier, it works very well, with never a trace of condensation. The foil does rather wreck radio and wifi reception in the shed though!

Martin
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 8:24 am   #4
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I have just built a new shed for my HI-FI and workshop and went OTT with insulation. House wrap on the outside of the wall then thermwrap ( bubble wrap coated in foil ) then celotex in the gaps between the studs all taped and cedar cladding on the inside/outside walls . With under floor the same ( now very dry and warm ) in winter a 1k fire kept it at 22C when -4 outside


Dave

PS the shed is 5m by 9m with a 3m high roof
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 8:36 am   #5
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave View Post
... Obviously, a lot of that comes from relevant experience - of which I have none - and have never seen this work done in any shed ...

For the final, inner skin I intend to use ordinary plasterboard - mainly on grounds of cost. But what about the joints where the edges of the plasterboard meet? Scrim tape and then a skim coat of plaster on all the walls - ditto the inner of the roof- and then paint? Would using 3 mm. plywood be cheaper overall ...
There are, as you say, real cost benefits to plasterboard. It's also the material with which many domestic internal walls are covered. So you can easily get, for instance, back boxes for 13A sockets which fit into cutouts in the board. It's also very fire resistant which might just stop a small incident turning into a very much larger one.

As far as the joints go, board can be obtained with 'tapered' edges which mean that the joints end up slightly recessed relative to the boards' plane surface. This can allow you to scrim the joints and then fill only the tapered part - even something like Polyfilla can be used for this. This saves you either learning how to put a skim coat of plaster on yourself (skim plastering over more than 1-2 m2 is a real skill) or paying a plasterer to come and do it for you (they can sometimes be reluctant to come out for small jobs). You can then either paint the exposed board and the filled joint directly or, if the surface isn't quite as lovely as you'd like, you can hang a layer of heavy duty lining paper onto it (paint the board with emulsion first - Google 'mist coat' - or you'll never be able to strip the paper off again). The tapered joints only work, of course, if the spacing of the underlying timbers (studs) is a submultiple of the board width (1200mm, I think, but it might be 1220mm i.e. 4ft).

Whether or not you will get hairline cracks at the board joints will depend, to a large extent, on movement of the underlying structure. In houses external walls can often be brickwork or blockwork which hardly moves at all. Internal walls may be made from (nominal) 100mm x 50mm studs which are also quite rigid. Cracks are most common on ceilings where changing loads on the floor above cause the joists to flex. If your shed is more flexible than your house though and is inclined to change shape when it's windy then you might find that cracking along the plasterboard joints is unavoidable. Scrim tape won't stop that. The fact that your studs are only 34mm wide will also mean that each board will only have 17mm of 'land' to sit on. This will mean you'll have to be careful with the screws so close to the board edges and also that it'll be easier for the boards to tilt relative to their neighbours at the joint which again will raise the risk of joint cracking. Of course you could choose to lay the boards horizontally. Then you could use 50mm wide additional horizontal studs for the joints and also get round any issues with the 34mm studs not being there every 1200mm.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 9:23 am   #6
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Whatever material you go for, I am thinking of Kingspan types in particular new damaged sheets are available really cheap from dedicated outlets rather than builders merchant. After all you will be cutting them to fit between the battens so a little corner missing should not matter.


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Old 16th Aug 2018, 10:25 am   #7
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I have a 12' x 8' timber shed that was put up 25 years ago. It was bought in a sale from a local firm (Wernik) that specialised in timber buildings for professional use: many of the buildings , including the one i worked in, at the Marconi research centre at Baddow, were supplied by them . As it is in Green Belt, they could put up "temporary" timber buildings without hassle, and most of them were supplied by Wernik.

Originally for the kids to play in, shiplap walls, pitched roof of shiplap with the smooth surface uppermost so that the grooves in the shiplap provide two rows of small gaps along each side to provide ventilation even when the window is closed. I filled the spaces between the vertical supports (studs) with fibreglass loft insulation and covered them with ordinary hardboard, which was, and still is, left unpainted, on the principle that bare wood would take up moisture and dry out when warmer. It has proved very satisfactory, but then we don't get much driving rain in Essex. I painted it from new with what was originally called Dulux Weathershield, but has changed its name from time to time. It originally incorporated a fungicide, but now the fungicide is in the primer. Unlike paints, it stays relatively flexible. I used to really every 5 years or so, but it is at least 10 years since I did anything to it, and it is still in excellent condition.

The only problem I have had has been deterioration of roofing felt, which I had applied as a single layer. The last time I used two layers so hopefully it should last longer. As it is now being used as a store room, including storing numerous books, I have been using a Dimplex thermostatic oil-filled radiator in winter, originally to dry of the dampness from the leaking roof. I now leave it on on its lowest setting and that has been satisfactory, no sign of dampness. The floor has 1/2" thick felt underlay covered by our old living room wool carpet.

Last edited by emeritus; 16th Aug 2018 at 10:40 am.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 11:51 am   #8
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

The last one I did was one I built from scratch using heavy duty studs (150mm)

Inside to out.....12.5mm tapered edge foil backed plasterboard (scrim 'n fill), 100mm rockwool insulation, 50mm Kingspan insulation, 12mm racking board (plywood sheet), breather membrane (Tyvek, white side in), 25mm x 50mm Tanalized vertical battens, breather membrane (Tyvek, white side in), Ex. 25mm x 150mm Tanalized shiplap cladding. The spaces created by the battens were ventilated top and bottom.

Good luck whichever.

Lawrence.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 2:15 pm   #9
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Arrow Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Gentlemen - thank you. Lots of useful advice and info. in the above.

Extract 1: Celotex/Kingspan insulation boards: they have a foil vapour barrier already glued on during manufacturing.
Ah-ha! That I wasn't aware of. So presumably that board is fixed to the inner wooden wall with barrier side in contact with that wall.
Any recommendations for what to use to secure that board against the wooden wall? PVA adhesive?

Extract 2: As far as the joints go, plasterboard can be obtained with 'tapered' edges which mean that the joints end up slightly recessed relative to the boards' plane surface.
I think I've met that type, but it hadn't crossed my mind until it was mentioned. I can readily see the advantages of using it.

Extract 3: You could choose to lay the boards horizontally. Then use 50mm wide additional horizontal studs for the joints to get round any issues with the 34mm studs not being there every 1200mm.
Sounds like a good idea to me.

And finally: where in my OP I used the word 'battens', I now realise the correct word is 'studs' - as in 'studding'. And I was wrong about the size of the studding: it isn't 34 x 34 mm.; it is 45 x 45 mm.

Al.

Last edited by Skywave; 16th Aug 2018 at 2:39 pm.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 2:17 pm   #10
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Whenever (anyone) has a felt roof that starts going porous, i would highly recommend it is replaced with corrugated bitumen/fibre based sheets, ie onduline/coroline. It lasts and lasts and can be sawn to size rapidly with a saw wetted with wd40. There is also a strong argument for cladding the outside of shiplap/weatherboard walls with it where funds/window & door apertures/aesthetics permit. (In that application you nail through the troughs instead of the peaks)

It requires care in storage and carriage as it's vulnerable to damage and sagging until fitted. An additional advantage is that it reduces peak summer temperature because of the limited contact area and the voids acting as thermosiphons.

(I have no affiliation with the manufacturers/suppliers..)

Dave
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 6:38 pm   #11
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Provided that the rigid insulation slabs are tacked [or glue blobbed] in - they will not be going anywhere once the internal lining surface has been affixed. You MUST ensure that any vapour barrier is located on the 'warm' side [i.e. facing internally] - silver foil vapour barriers also provide reflective insulation.

Personally, I would affix rigid insulation tightly and snugly between all studs [the studs themselves are excellent insulators] - then caulk all around their perimeters with cheap gun applied mastic. Then I'd apply a plastic sheet vapour barrier to all internal surfaces - using welted joints and aluminium or galvanised clout-headed nails. Then I'd nail or screw 9mm or better sterling board as the final internal surface - on the basis that you can easily screw or nail to it [or screw-in hooks]. Then I'd paint the lot arctic white - in order to cheer the place up a bit/bounce some light around.

Passive and/or powered ventilation is a good idea too - don't forget to introduce air registers which will ensure that any powered extract isn't pulling a vacuum. (Good ventilation depends upon introducing additional fresh air in order to achieve a reasonable number of air changes per hour.)

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Old 16th Aug 2018, 6:43 pm   #12
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

P.S. Cheap plastic wall-to-wall seamless floor covering will provide a good vapour barrier on that surface ..... and make spills etc. easier to clean up [albeit that you can still lay your Kashmir / Indian / sheep-skin rugs on top of the latter] ................
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 8:31 pm   #13
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

For the roof I used https://www.bushburycladding.co.uk/order-roof-sheets cost is approx. that of good felt but lasts a lot longer

Dave
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 8:40 pm   #14
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Al, I guess as your shed is already constructed, it had an outer sheathing of tongue & groove or ship-lap(looks like the lapped boards which form the hull of a pleasure park's rowing boat) wooden boards(weather boarding). Those boards are usually fixed horizontally, one on top of the other, from the bottom up. Nailed to the matrix of stud framing. Studs being the vertical wooden battens. These in turn are supported top & bottom with a longtitudal bottom & top (plates they're called) batten. If its well built, it should have waterproof breather paper behind the weather boarding. Sadly, most all timber for garden sheds these days is cheapo treated whitewood, often prone to shakes(cracks) & knots which fall out. Vapour barrier installed on the inside(usually polythene sheeting) is not for keeping the weather out, but to stop water vapour inside the shed(especially if its heated) from condensing on the inside of the cold wooden structure.
Hopefully Tractionist will explain the technicalities of 'Dew Point' & 'U' Value.
Fire retardant polystyrene sheeting could be fitted within the cavities of the timber frame. Don't fit plasterboard inside. Perhaps bitumen treated thick hardboard which can be painted on the inner side.

Regards, David
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 8:49 pm   #15
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
Whenever (anyone) has a felt roof that starts going porous, i would highly recommend it is replaced with corrugated bitumen/fibre based sheets, ie onduline/coroline.
Nice in theory, but I did that on my summerhouse roof a while back, and the channels between the coroline and the underlying ply were promptly occupied by a range of small forest-rodents.

Rodents *need* to habitually and repetitively gnaw on hard-stuff to wear-down their continually-growing teeth.

I guess you can see where this is leading...

BTW 'officially' traditional oily-stinky-and-very-effective-as-a-wood-preservative Creosote is no longer allowed to be sold to the general market. But there's nothing to stop you calling yourself "Joe Bloggs Horticultural Services" when ordering it online in 25-litre drums.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 9:36 pm   #16
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

34mm deep studs limits what you can do insulation wise unless you build them up internally.

My first "insulated" shed just had 25mm cavity wall expanded polystyrene batts between the studs and purlins with white painted hardboard sheet as a lining and carpet tiles on the floor. It was 14' by 7' and quite habitable as a workshop in the winter with a 1500W convector heater.

My present shed project has 65mm deep studs, so I've used 55mm foil coated Kingspan between the studs and purlins. The walls are lined with light duty white oak effect laminate flooring and the roof with 3mm white painted plywood sheet. Floor has heavier duty darker wood effect laminate flooring on the usual 3mm "underlay". Time will tell whether it works well or not but it looks good.

For the roof I've gone with butyl rubber sheet rather than felt. Hopefully that will outlive me!

I went for Kingspan seconds, but even so they were £26 +VAT for 2.4m*1.2m sheets so not exactly cheap.

I won't know till the winter how much heating it will need, but hopefully less than the 1500W for the previous shed.
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 9:54 pm   #17
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Interesting to know that creosote can still be obtained - there's nothing anywhere near as effective as a wood preservative. No self-respecting enemy of wood will go anywhere near creosote!
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 9:58 pm   #18
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

If you have 34mm uprights, and say 25mm Kingspan, that gives you a gap behind the kingspan. With a small gap at the bottom, and at the top, you allow airflow. Do the same with your roof. The gap at top and bottom should prevent condensation, which WILL form, drip, and cause the wood to rot.
If you want more insulation, you add it over the uprights as well asa between. Just be sure to ventilate.
I did NOT leave the gap initially, so had to leave a window open at each end of the (30') shed.
Les.
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 12:37 am   #19
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Arrow Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Re: posts 16 & 18. Earlier in this thread, I made an error. The studding is 45 mm. x 45 mm., not 34 mm. x 34 mm. Sorry for the confusion thus caused.

Al.
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 7:41 am   #20
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Slightly OT, but regarding wood preservative I have found 'Barrettine' to be a good product; it's solvent-based and can be applied quickly and easily with a standard emulsion-grade roller, pump-spray dispenser (wear PPE ) as well as brush.


I note and applaud the exceptionally high standard of solutions offered by others. In the case of my own workshop, I kept rigid control of quality, cost and completion time in terms of what was always envisaged as a ten-year lifetime project, based as it is upon a relatively inexpensive flatpack shed.

Best wishes
Guy

Last edited by Nymrod121; 17th Aug 2018 at 7:47 am.
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