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Old 26th Jun 2019, 1:05 am   #101
Synchrodyne
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Default Re: Tone Controls

A loudness control that boosted the mid-range would certainly be most unusual! On the other hand, as you say, presence controls deliberately provided a mid-range boost, typically peaking around 1.5 kHz.

By way of examples, the Revox A78 had a single-position switched presence control, as shown in post #93. The Radford SC24 had a variable boost-only middle tone control that was effectively a presence control, see post #36.

And here is a Philips circuit for a variable presence control, using its TDA1074 electronic potentiometer IC:

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Old 26th Jun 2019, 4:58 am   #102
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Default Re: Tone Controls

NatSemi did an IC tone control as well.

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Old 26th Jun 2019, 6:53 am   #103
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Yes indeed, the LM1035/LM1036, I think generally comparable to the TDA1074, although just a little later. That went with the LM1037/LM1038 4-way stereo electronic switch, generally comparable to the TDA1029. The TDA1028 was a 2 x 2-way stereo switch. An apparent difference between the LM1037 and TDA1029 was that a pair of the former could be used side-by-side to provide switching amongst 8 inputs, whereas a TDA1029 pair had to be used in tandem and so-connected provided 7 inputs. (I am not sure if that was corrected in the TDA1028A.)

The Philips TDA1074 had followed the earlier TCA740 tone control (and companion TCA730 switch). But I think that these were in the general-purpose class, whereas the TDA1074 & co. were aimed at the hi-fi market, with lower noise and distortion.

These ICs arrived on the scene not long before the anti-tone control movement gained momentum, and also at about the same time as or just before two-rail switching became popular in control units and control sections of integrated amplifiers. I am not sure that anyone offered two-rail, multi-way switching in a single IC.


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Old 16th Jul 2019, 9:13 am   #104
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Default Re: Tone Controls

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Originally Posted by Synchrodyne View Post
Yes indeed, the LM1035/LM1036, I think generally comparable to the TDA1074, although just a little later.
In fact the LM1035/1036 and TDA1074 were somewhat different.

With the LM1035/LM1036, only a single external capacitor was required for each of the four tone control networks, so the other impedances required must have been internal.

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On the other hand, with the TDA1074, all of the tone control network impedances were external, thus allowing quite a bit of flexibility for the circuit designer, albeit at the expense of additional passive components.

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These tone controls can be mapped out in a more conventional manner; here is the bass control:

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It does look somewhat familiar, with the 33 nF capacitor being the treble bypass and the 180k resistor taking the place of the customary potentiometer, the electronic potentiometer being internal to the IC, on the other side of the buffers. The upper limb provides maximum bass lift (192 k resistance on the feedback arm and 12 k on the input arm) and the lower limb provides maximum bass cut (12 k on the feedback arm and 192 k on the input. The electronic potentiometer then effectively mixes the two arms in varying proportions. The 33 nF capacitor effectively shorts the 180 k resistor as far as the treble is concerned, so that both limbs are unity gain (12 k feedback arm, 12 k input arm).

The treble control looks somewhat different:

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Here each buffer is associated with its own input and feedback arms, arranged in what might be called diagonal symmetry. The upper limb, with the RC network on the input arm, provides maximum treble lift, whilst the lower limb, with the RC network on the feedback arm, provides maximum treble cut, with again the electronic potentiometer swinging between the two. As the 1.8 nF capacitors tend towards very high impedance at bass frequencies, each limb is unity gain as far as the bass is concerned (39 k feedback and 39 k input arms).

Although it is probably a stretch to describe the TDA1074 tone control as being of the Baxandall type, it did follow the Baxandall precept of distributing the reactive networks over both the feedback and input arms of inverting amplifiers.


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Old 11th Oct 2019, 3:04 am   #105
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Looking back to the immediate post-WWII period, what might have been a different way of providing separate bass and treble tone controls without switching between the lift and cut functions was that used by Sound Sales, and referred to as its tri-channel, electronically mixed system, as mentioned in the attached Wireless World advertisements.

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By way of disambiguation, to use the current terminology, in the 1950s Sound Sales also use the descriptor “tri-channel” to describe its amplification system in which an electronic dividing network was used to feed three power amplifier and speaker channels, one each for treble, middle and bass. However, in the 1940s, tri-channel appeared only to refer to the tone control system, which was used with or as part of conventional single-channel amplification systems.

From the limited information available, and including what is “outcome bias” or perhaps “hindsight bias” from knowledge of what Sound Sales later did with its tri-channel system, one may postulate that the tri-channel tone control system worked as follows. The incoming audio was sent through a dividing network (R-C or perhaps L-C) that separated it into three channels for further processing, following which the three parts were electronically recombined. Two of these channels were treble and bass, each with its own gain control. The third channel might have been what was left after the treble and bass were separated out, or it might have been the whole audio signal, unfiltered. There was no gain control in this channel. The need for the third channel may have been because the treble and bass channels did not have a common turnover point, but were separated somewhat. Arbitrarily, they might have been an octave apart, say at 1.4 kHz and 700 Hz.

Whether the splitting and recombination was done passively or actively is unknown, but from the WW advertisements, the tone control unit does look as if it contained a valve or valves.

One could argue that the passive tone controls of the period effectively divided the audio into treble and bass channels, controlled the gains thereof and then recombined, but there was a blurring of this functional parts, and there was not always a full dividing function at the input, but sometimes a blocking function at the output end. Thus the Sound Sales system, if in fact it was as assumed, was reasonably a different approach again, perhaps the more so if it included amplification/buffering in each channel.

Given that history, one might have expected that Sound Sales’ 1950s tri-channel system with three power amplifier channels might have put the tone controls after the dividing network, which would have allowed for one in each channel, treble, middle and bass. But at least the picture from Hi Fi Year Book 1956 suggests that that was not the case, as the tri-channel control unit had just treble and bass controls, and looked to be the same as the regular A-Z Senior control unit. By then of course Sound Sales might have been using the Baxandall tone control.

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Old 25th Oct 2019, 10:50 pm   #106
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Default Re: Tone Controls

The Sound Sales trichannel tone control with electronic mixing was mentioned in the immediately preceding post.

What may be another example of a receiver from the same era with a broadly similar tone control was the Morton Cheney, described in this thread: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=159983. The bass and treble tone controls were covered in post #84: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...1&postcount=84

The circuit shown therein is thought to contain some errors, but the general arrangement is retrievable. The tone controls themselves are of the passive type, generally conforming to the Volkoff/James pattern. However, the bass and treble outputs were not recombined in the normal passive way, but each fed to the grid of its own triode amplifier stage, the outputs of which were then combined. Given that the triodes would have had a shared anode load (whether on the DC or the AC side), that I think would constitute electronic mixing. Presumably the triodes made up for the 14 dB or more loss incurred in the passive tone controls, and by individually buffering the bass and treble controls, may have reduced interaction between the two and so produced a better set of curves.

Be that as it may, the electronically mixed tone control was not an idea that flourished at the time. I suspect that the Baxandall circuit of the early 1950s was seen as a simpler way of achieving satisfactory results. It may also be noted that by the later 1970s, when the cost of active devices (particularly opamps) had dropped to the point where the constraint of device count was no longer a major imperative, Baxandall advocated the use of tandem bass and treble controls, each with its own opamp, rather than having these in parallel with electronic mixing.


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Old 26th Oct 2019, 12:51 am   #107
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Possibly the inspiration for the Sound Sales tri-channel electronically mixed tone control was an American “quality” receiver described in Wireless World (WW) 1939 March 23, p.271ff. (The complete article is attached).

This receiver was described as having “elaborate tone compensation, achieved by splitting the AF into three pathways following the first audio voltage amplifier stage.

One pathway, which could be described as “all-pass”, went via a fixed attenuator (>20 dB) to a triode stage.

The second, the treble pathway, went via a potentiometer that served as the treble control, to a high-pass filter and then to another triode stage.

The third, the bass pathway, went via another potentiometer that served as the bass control, to a low-pass filter and then to yet another triode stage.

The three triodes mentioned shared a common anode load resistor, therefore the three signals, all-pass, treble and bass were electronically mixed.

This circuit would, I think fit the description given by Sound Sales for its tri-channel tone control. That makes it a possible, maybe probable candidate, but it would not have been the only possibility. The impression I have of Sound Sales, from the information available on its 1950s products, is that it was not a circuit innovator, but tended to use standard circuits, albeit sometimes in unusual ways. Its later amplifier circuits at least might well have been based upon GEC and Mullard UL designs. So it would not be too surprising if it had picked up on that 1939 American circuit for use in its immediate post-WWII range, with the tri-channel tone control later segueing into its tri-channel amplification system.

That American circuit was another way of providing continuously variable treble and bass tone controls without the need for switching between lift and cut.

I did extract the tone control section from that 1939 WW article and started marking it up to show the three channels. In doing that I discovered what might be a mistake in the way the circuit was drawn, in that the all-pass triode and the gramophone input triode appear to be been mixed up. I think that the gramophone triode should have been standalone, with its output going to the radio/gram switch in the RF part, and the all-pass triode sharing the same load resistor as the treble and bass triodes. Anyway, here is where I got to before seeing the alleged error.

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Name:	Elaborate Tone Controls from WW 19390323 p.272,2373.jpg
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 3:27 am   #108
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Default Re: Tone Controls

I suppose there's an element of marketing in it all... having something to point at in brochures, for salesmen to demonstrate to punters.

On the other hand, you could view a triple knob tone control as a 3-band graphic equaliser. Just using those words would make it 200% more unacceptable to the anti-tone control movement

I remain bemused by how the use of frequency response shaping controls in the studio is conveniently forgotten. Tone controlling at home is still allowed, but you're required to do it by buying and selling pieces of equipment, not by turning a knob.

Synthesising slopes which are not simple multiples of 6dB/octave is an interesting exercise in circuit design and usually involves either an array of sequential alternating poles and zeroes, or else the proportioned mixing of two paths (with care over their relative phases)

In the seventies I had to design a linearity corrector for a voltage-tuned sweeping oscillator. The result had certain similarities to a Baxandall circuit crossed with a graphic equaliser having non-linear elements proportioned between forward and feedback paths. (HPJ April 1982) It gave an array of fixed breakpoints at each of which slope could be increased or decreased by a smooth adjustment without switching. Adjusted in order, the twiddlers didn't interact. In reverse order they were chaotic.

For adjusting a graphic equaliser, you have to treat one band as your reference and work outwards from it, so they have one more pot than strictly necessary, but as you don't know in advance just which one....

Maybe the mid control in a triple tone control is redundant as it's the reference band for the other two?

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Old 26th Oct 2019, 4:02 am   #109
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Default Re: Tone Controls

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Maybe the mid control in a triple tone control is redundant as it's the reference band for the other two?
I am inclined to think so. The triple tone control was a minority type as compared with the usual treble and bass combination.

Although Sound Sales referred to its tone control as being of the “tri-channel” type, it did not include a middle control, only treble and bass. “Tri-channel” referred to the fact that the audio was split into three streams, probably all-pass, low-pass (bass) and high-pass (treble). Evidently only the bass and treble channels had individual gain controls. A gain control on the all-pass channel would not have done anything that the bass and treble controls could not do, except perhaps allowing larger excursions at their extremes. Anyway, the fact that Sound Sales could easily have incorporated a middle control in its tri-channel system but did not suggests that it saw the redundancy.


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Old 26th Oct 2019, 4:30 am   #110
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Talking of triple tone controls, that is treble, middle and bass, until recently I had not found a generalized circuit for such, although of course there are what might be called standard circuits for conventional treble and bass controls.

However, a Sansui patent, US3914716 (application filed in 1974), for an improved triple control point does provide a suitable reference point. It refers to a “prior art” circuit, not covered by any patents, which was probably Sansui’s idea of industry practice to date. Here is the prior art circuit.

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Basically it looks like a Baxandall circuit to which has been added a third network for the middle control, the output of which is connected to the treble network output by a standoff resistor. As an aside, whilst Baxandall wrote quite a bit on tone controls, including graphic equalizers, I don’t recall seeing that he ever mentioned the triple type or of including extra networks in his basic circuit.

At least according to Sansui, a problem with this kind of network was that the middle control can adversely affect the treble setting, for reasons delineated in the patent document, attached. Thus Sansui devised a more complex network to minimize this effect.

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Given that the original Japanese patent application was filed in 1973, it may still have been a time, where for mid- and lower-priced hi-fi equipment anyway, active device count was still a reasonably important parameter, although not a strongly so as in the late 1960s. Thus an improved triple tone control network that could be used around a single amplification stage was a desideratum. Avoiding the interaction by having a separate middle control stage following the treble and bass stage was perhaps something that at the time could be justified only for the higher priced units. Radford had done it this way in its SC24 control unit, as discussed in posts #36 and #86 above. There the middle control, with its own set of transistors, followed the treble and bass control. But the SC24 was, for its time, quite costly, and with 50 transistors, appears to have been designed on the basis of “let the active device count lie where it falls”.


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Old 26th Oct 2019, 8:44 am   #111
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Default Re: Tone Controls

I still prefer 'conventional' tone controls to the type of thing on a late 90s Sony system I'm currently using. This, like many similar sets, has a number of buttons labelled 'Disco', 'Jazz' 'Stadium', TV News, and other such terms, plus an electronic graphic equaliser with multiple settings. I've never studied the manual to figure it all out in detail, and usually leave it on one setting. As someone mentioned earlier, such things are a good selling point to put in brochures, etc., and for sales people to demonstrate, but if I were buying new gear, I wouldn't be tempted by such, to me, unnecessary 'gimmicks!'
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 10:19 am   #112
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Default Re: Tone Controls

This has been a most illuminating Thread. However, I can't recall any mention of our beloved UK made "Tripletone" range of amplifiers. Good (and so beautifuuly built) as they were, the most basic models only offered "Cut" and generally needed to be used with all 3 tone controls at their maximum setting.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 11:28 am   #113
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Default Re: Tone Controls

See posts 89 and 90. Thus far though, no detailed circuit information for the Tripletone amplifiers has come to light.

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Old 26th Oct 2019, 1:45 pm   #114
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Cripes, how did I miss these earlier Posts?!
We were Tripletone dealers in the mid/late 1950s and I can confirm that all the valve amplifiers had passive circuits and the more basic were not of the "Baxendall" type. And, yes, when set to minimum the amplifiers gave virtually no output at all. I do have the circuit diagrams of these (and their valved FM Tuner) but not for the later transistor ones with active circuits. When I get these out of storage I will post scans. These amplifiers are a joy to behold with beautiful wiring (e.g. twisted heater wiring) and, even with their quite simple smoothing arrangements, had extremely low hum levels.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 2:26 pm   #115
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Default Re: Tone Controls

It sounds like they didn't so much have three tone controls as have three bands of volume controls!

As info on these is rare, posting ought to help people seeking it.

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Old 27th Oct 2019, 12:21 am   #116
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Yes, it would be very interesting to see the Tripletone circuitry. I suspect that it was one of the first amplifier makers to include a middle tone control.

Perhaps the fact that three tone controls were effectively a three-band volume control is why Radford, when it included a middle tone control on its SC24 control unit, elected to make it of the variable lift-only type, effectively a variable presence control. The Philips data for the TDA1074 tone control IC also showed a variable presence control, which could also be seen as a lift-only middle control.

Something to be borne in mind that was that the Tripletone amplifiers were aimed at the lower-priced end of the market, and as such were likely to be paired with speakers of relatively modest and quite variable, on a model-to-model basis, performance. Perhaps modest adjustment of the mid-range, either way, was beneficial with some such speakers. It might also be insightful to see what Tripletone said about the middle control and use thereof in its sales literature and operating instructions.

In the Radford SC24 sales brochure, it was simply stated: “An additional facility is a midrange lift or ‘presence’ control.” In the operating instructions, all that was said was “The mid-range control provides an increase only in the output of middle frequencies.”

These Radford literature items did not include tone and filter control curves; the following are taken from the Gramophone magazine review of 1971 March.

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The middle tone control is centred on 1.5 kHz, whereas the flat portion of the curve unaffected by the bass and treble controls covers approximately 700 Hz to 1.4 kHz, i.e. half an octave either way about 1 kHz, perhaps very slightly displaced downwards from 1 kHz. That at least suggest that its function and utility weres seen as being somewhat divorced from those of the bass and trebel controls.

The Gramophone reviewer (John Borwick) made the comment: “The middle boost control is essentially a means of enlivening dim or backward sounding material and I had very little use for it,…”


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Old 27th Oct 2019, 8:00 am   #117
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Default Re: Tone Controls

The new (October this year) Quad Artera preamp has reintroduced the tilt control, and a low frequency control, last seen in the Quad 34 and 44.

It is not clear how these operate from the minimalist front panel http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/artera-pre/, although preliminary hifi press comments suggest that the OLED display is touch sensitive, and presumably there is a remote control too. £999 apparently.
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Old 27th Oct 2019, 9:25 am   #118
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Had to google dBu to make sense of that!


Initial reponse was "What have microvolts to do with audio levels?"


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Old 27th Oct 2019, 9:35 am   #119
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It is a bit weird that they are using dBu in a consumer audio spec. It would have been much more sensible to speak in terms of 0dBV as 1V rms output.

In designing audio gear, including pro gear like mixing desks (see for instance https://support.presonus.com/hc/en-u...ng-dbFS-vs-dbu ), using dBu is pretty common. It quirkily dates back to the old telephone 600 ohm standard - 0dBu being defined as 1mW into 600 ohms (775mV rms). So 0dBV = 0dBu + 2.2dB.

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Old 27th Oct 2019, 10:03 am   #120
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Default Re: Tone Controls

Continuing this informative Thread, I have always been somewhat curious about the use of their familiar, much used, description as "continuously variable tone controls".
Essentially, all potentiometers are continuously variable, including their application as volume controls as well as tone controls.
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