The end of Minitel after 30 years - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Tractorfan · 30th Jun 2012, 4:53 pm

Hi,
Thought you might like to know that the French "Minitel" service operated by France Telecom closed down today. It was the forerunner of internet style services where subscribers could access the phone directory, weather forecasts, buy items online & chat with friends, etc. using a terminal with a keyboard & a monochrome CRT display. The last ones used LCD screens. I have three CRT terminals here and often wondered if they could "talk" to each other if they were connected in parallel across a 50volt DC supply? Hm, must give it a try.
Cheers, Pete

bobbyball · 30th Jun 2012, 7:00 pm

I saw this on the news earlier in the week.

I remember the day my friends in Paris got their "Minitel" terminal and will never forget the "3615" number sequence...

Robert

Herald1360 · 30th Jun 2012, 9:32 pm

Is it mourned for like analogue TV teletext?

I'm not a fan of the current digital version

GMB · 30th Jun 2012, 10:33 pm

Crumbs, I didn't realise it was surviving so well.

I worked for a French company at the time it started and I remember we were evaluating the system to see what other applications it might be used for.

It seemed such a good idea and rather ahead of its time.

julie_m · 1st Jul 2012, 1:20 am

Quelle dommage

I remember 36-15 being the then-version of .co.uk (or even .fr).

Sad to see it go, but it lasted well and it's not as though the same information isn't already available. And I give it about a week before someone knocks up an alternative service to which you can connect an old Minitel terminal .....

bluepilot · 1st Jul 2012, 1:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMB

It seemed such a good idea and rather ahead of its time.

It could maybe have become the www but like so many things ahead of its time it didn't catch on and then got overtaken by something else. In the early days they gave terminals away free to try and generate interest.

I remember around 1985 Deutsche Telekom introduced an experimental directory enquiries service which worked by dialing in the name, address, etc of the person you were looking for. As they had a monopoly at the time and wouldn't let anyone have anything other than rotary dial phones, it was rather hard on the fingers. Very primitive compared to Minitel and of course it didn't catch on either.

dave walsh · 1st Jul 2012, 9:56 pm

I believe that I've got one of these in the North; a little tray pulls out underneath with keyboard, telephone connection. Would someone in England have been on this system though? I think it's a Philips make!
Dave W

whyperion · 2nd Jul 2012, 10:37 am

The use of everything going over HTTP TCP/IP these days seems to me a little too much putting everything bet on one horse. Retaining at least a secondary information and communications system might have given France a competitive advantage in its own country.

mike_newcomb · 3rd Jul 2012, 10:50 am

Hi Pete,

I remember reading about Minitel when it was first announced.
Was Minitel the French equivalent of the UK's Prestel/Viewdata services?
If so, read on.

Although in the UK viewdata did not catch on as as prophisied (thanks to BT, it was impossible to predict costs), due to an initiative by Thomsons it was widely adopted by Travel Agents as a universal terminal for accessing Tour Operators central computers.

Understand there are still some UK viewdata sites around, possibly provided by hobbyists.

Do not know how French telephone networks charge, but my calls from the UK to France are free. It would be interesting to see what happens if you link up your terminal to one of these sites.

Good Luck - Mike.

dave walsh · 3rd Jul 2012, 11:31 am

So is it likely that's actually a Prestel unit I've got Mike? [post 7*] Not French at all. Dave W

julie_m · 3rd Jul 2012, 3:27 pm

If it is French, the top row of the keyboard will read AZERTYUIOP and the SHIFT key will be required to type numbers.

g8jzyian · 3rd Jul 2012, 4:23 pm

If I recall correctly Prestel used a V23 modem so two outstations cannot speak to one another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V.23

OscarFoxtrot · 3rd Jul 2012, 7:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave walsh

I believe that I've got one of these in the North; a little tray pulls out underneath with keyboard, telephone connection. Would someone in England have been on this system though? I think it's a Philips make!
Dave W

I think the same or similar terminals were used for Bank of Scotland HOBS banking-by-modem

dave walsh · 3rd Jul 2012, 9:44 pm

THanks AJ/Oscar. I'll check it out when I go home later this month!
Dave W

mike_newcomb · 3rd Jul 2012, 10:57 pm

Hi Dave,

any chance of some photos of your terminal please?

in the UK the service started life as Prestel from BT with a number of central databases mimicking each other. Usage costs could be expensive and were impossible to calculate in advance. So much so it put many potential users off.

Changed name to Viewdata and where possible BT computers were bypassed, more so when full interactive services evolved.

Here is interesting reading:-

http://www.viewdata.org.uk/

They may know of the site that is still running, maybe it is they providing. Check out their forums. You will recognise the layout.

Generally Prestel used the V23 communications protocol. The speed being 1200/75 baud. 1200 download and 75 upload (telex is 50 baud). This is because you typed the input, and typing speed is not fast. There was an alternative faster network, but it was not much used. Seem to recall also V25 packet switching was involved.

Regards - Mike

irrelevant · 3rd Jul 2012, 11:29 pm

Hi Mike. Thanks for the plug! (www.viewdata.org.uk is mine)

Yes, Minitel was a development of Prestel, as invented by the GPO back in the early 1970s. It was going to be called Viewdata first, but they couldn't trademark it as it was too descriptive a name, so they switched to Prestel, and "viewdata" and "videotex" were used as generics for any compatible service. Prestel launched in 1979 here, but was never as successful as it could have been (thanks to an initial restriction that the only thing that could access it would be TV sets with the extra hardware, which turned out to be in very short supply and prohibitively expensive!). The French got it right - give away the basic terminals for free, and so of course lots of people used it. Micronet 800 tried that approach, giving away modems for home computer users, but it wasn't enough to save them. I'm sad to see Minitel go, but how can a service entirely run by a single PTT compete against the variety of the Internet..

Micronet was bought out by Prestel themselves, but closed down soon after. Prestel itself was sold off and closed down in 1995... anybody would think it was deliberate..

The HOBS terminals were indeed by Philips - made in France, they support minitel and standard 80 column scrolling services as well as Prestel. See one of mine here - I've got three, plus a pair of alcatel terminals that are similar. Before those, HOBS used to offer Tandata units that plugged into your TV. Of course, if you had a home computer it was cheaper to use that.

Services to dial into? I've got a viewdata format BBS running (phone number in that linked blog post) that should work. (If it's down, let me know!) or there might be some travel systems still alive, although I think most have migrated to access-via-internet now. I can't help with access details on those though.

People sometimes find it amazing that everything we think of as commonplace internet activities today we were doing over 25 years ago on Prestel. There was life Before The Internet.

dave walsh · 3rd Jul 2012, 11:36 pm

Not on here Mike (no camera or skills) but my friend, another Mike, will easily do hard copy photos for you when I get back North if that would help.

Dave

emeritus · 3rd Jul 2012, 11:59 pm

I remember seeing Prestel/Viewdata in action during a visit to the BT labs at Martlesham in the early 1980's, where it was explained that it could be used for shopping. The guide explained that the purchasing functionality had been disabled from the demonstration terminal, as a previous guide had inadvertently ordered a case of wine for real when demonstrating its capabilities.

30th Jun 2012, 4:53 pm	#1
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,184	The end of Minitel after 30 years Hi, Thought you might like to know that the French "Minitel" service operated by France Telecom closed down today. It was the forerunner of internet style services where subscribers could access the phone directory, weather forecasts, buy items online & chat with friends, etc. using a terminal with a keyboard & a monochrome CRT display. The last ones used LCD screens. I have three CRT terminals here and often wondered if they could "talk" to each other if they were connected in parallel across a 50volt DC supply? Hm, must give it a try. Cheers, Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..."

30th Jun 2012, 7:00 pm	#2
bobbyball Octode Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Stockport, Greater Manchester Posts: 1,217	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years I saw this on the news earlier in the week. I remember the day my friends in Paris got their "Minitel" terminal and will never forget the "3615" number sequence... Robert

30th Jun 2012, 9:32 pm	#3
Herald1360 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 16,536	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Is it mourned for like analogue TV teletext? I'm not a fan of the current digital version __________________ ....__________ ....\|____\|\|__\|__\_____ .=.\| _---\__\|__\|_---_\|. .........O..Chris....O

30th Jun 2012, 10:33 pm	#4
GMB Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay) Posts: 3,100	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Crumbs, I didn't realise it was surviving so well. I worked for a French company at the time it started and I remember we were evaluating the system to see what other applications it might be used for. It seemed such a good idea and rather ahead of its time.

1st Jul 2012, 1:20 am	#5
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Quelle dommage I remember 36-15 being the then-version of .co.uk (or even .fr). Sad to see it go, but it lasted well and it's not as though the same information isn't already available. And I give it about a week before someone knocks up an alternative service to which you can connect an old Minitel terminal ..... __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

1st Jul 2012, 9:56 pm	#7
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years I believe that I've got one of these in the North; a little tray pulls out underneath with keyboard, telephone connection. Would someone in England have been on this system though? I think it's a Philips make! Dave W

2nd Jul 2012, 10:37 am	#8
whyperion Hexode Join Date: May 2005 Location: London 90% , Northwest England 10% Posts: 386	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years The use of everything going over HTTP TCP/IP these days seems to me a little too much putting everything bet on one horse. Retaining at least a secondary information and communications system might have given France a competitive advantage in its own country.

3rd Jul 2012, 10:50 am	#9
mike_newcomb Rest in Peace Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: West London, UK. Posts: 665	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Hi Pete, I remember reading about Minitel when it was first announced. Was Minitel the French equivalent of the UK's Prestel/Viewdata services? If so, read on. Although in the UK viewdata did not catch on as as prophisied (thanks to BT, it was impossible to predict costs), due to an initiative by Thomsons it was widely adopted by Travel Agents as a universal terminal for accessing Tour Operators central computers. Understand there are still some UK viewdata sites around, possibly provided by hobbyists. Do not know how French telephone networks charge, but my calls from the UK to France are free. It would be interesting to see what happens if you link up your terminal to one of these sites. Good Luck - Mike.

3rd Jul 2012, 11:31 am	#10
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years So is it likely that's actually a Prestel unit I've got Mike? [post 7*] Not French at all. Dave W

3rd Jul 2012, 3:27 pm	#11
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years If it is French, the top row of the keyboard will read AZERTYUIOP and the SHIFT key will be required to type numbers. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

3rd Jul 2012, 4:23 pm	#12
g8jzyian Pentode Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK. Posts: 149	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years If I recall correctly Prestel used a V23 modem so two outstations cannot speak to one another. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V.23

3rd Jul 2012, 9:44 pm	#14
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years THanks AJ/Oscar. I'll check it out when I go home later this month! Dave W

3rd Jul 2012, 10:57 pm	#15
mike_newcomb Rest in Peace Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: West London, UK. Posts: 665	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Hi Dave, any chance of some photos of your terminal please? in the UK the service started life as Prestel from BT with a number of central databases mimicking each other. Usage costs could be expensive and were impossible to calculate in advance. So much so it put many potential users off. Changed name to Viewdata and where possible BT computers were bypassed, more so when full interactive services evolved. Here is interesting reading:- http://www.viewdata.org.uk/ They may know of the site that is still running, maybe it is they providing. Check out their forums. You will recognise the layout. Generally Prestel used the V23 communications protocol. The speed being 1200/75 baud. 1200 download and 75 upload (telex is 50 baud). This is because you typed the input, and typing speed is not fast. There was an alternative faster network, but it was not much used. Seem to recall also V25 packet switching was involved. Regards - Mike

3rd Jul 2012, 11:29 pm	#16
irrelevant Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Salford, UK. Posts: 1	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Hi Mike. Thanks for the plug! (www.viewdata.org.uk is mine) Yes, Minitel was a development of Prestel, as invented by the GPO back in the early 1970s. It was going to be called Viewdata first, but they couldn't trademark it as it was too descriptive a name, so they switched to Prestel, and "viewdata" and "videotex" were used as generics for any compatible service. Prestel launched in 1979 here, but was never as successful as it could have been (thanks to an initial restriction that the only thing that could access it would be TV sets with the extra hardware, which turned out to be in very short supply and prohibitively expensive!). The French got it right - give away the basic terminals for free, and so of course lots of people used it. Micronet 800 tried that approach, giving away modems for home computer users, but it wasn't enough to save them. I'm sad to see Minitel go, but how can a service entirely run by a single PTT compete against the variety of the Internet.. Micronet was bought out by Prestel themselves, but closed down soon after. Prestel itself was sold off and closed down in 1995... anybody would think it was deliberate.. The HOBS terminals were indeed by Philips - made in France, they support minitel and standard 80 column scrolling services as well as Prestel. See one of mine here - I've got three, plus a pair of alcatel terminals that are similar. Before those, HOBS used to offer Tandata units that plugged into your TV. Of course, if you had a home computer it was cheaper to use that. Services to dial into? I've got a viewdata format BBS running (phone number in that linked blog post) that should work. (If it's down, let me know!) or there might be some travel systems still alive, although I think most have migrated to access-via-internet now. I can't help with access details on those though. People sometimes find it amazing that everything we think of as commonplace internet activities today we were doing over 25 years ago on Prestel. There was life Before The Internet.

3rd Jul 2012, 11:36 pm	#17
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years Not on here Mike (no camera or skills) but my friend, another Mike, will easily do hard copy photos for you when I get back North if that would help. Dave

3rd Jul 2012, 11:59 pm	#18
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,349	Re: The end of Minitel after 30 years I remember seeing Prestel/Viewdata in action during a visit to the BT labs at Martlesham in the early 1980's, where it was explained that it could be used for shopping. The guide explained that the purchasing functionality had been disabled from the demonstration terminal, as a previous guide had inadvertently ordered a case of wine for real when demonstrating its capabilities.