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Old 21st May 2019, 9:42 pm   #21
astral highway
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

Ahah, that would explain a lot.
On closer inspection it looks like a cheap plastic moulding...

It was from a reputable source, shocking really.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:25 am   #22
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

did it come with a pale blue or black stylus guard?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 9:57 am   #23
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

How reputable, you'll find out when you demand your money back!
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Old 22nd May 2019, 1:10 pm   #24
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

I've just checked a couple that I have here, both the 'M' and the 'H' version, and they both have 'Made In England' on the top of them. I've had them for a long time, so they'll be from the days when old stock was still available. However, considering that these cartridges haven't been manufactured for decades, I would think that any sold as 'brand new' now will likely to be copies of the original, as there can't be much (or even any) old stock of the original BSR made ones left by now.

The made in England logo is on the top of the cartridge, so it has to be removed from the head shell and 'clip', if fitted, to see it.

One last thought, and I really shouldn't have to say it, as Al has been on here years and will have no doubt seen all the repeated warnings over the years, but wires should never be soldered to the tags with them fitted to the cartridge. Just a few seconds of heat from a hot soldering iron anywhere near one of these cartridges will kill it stone dead, so worth mentioning this again for other readers who may be new to record players.
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Old 24th May 2019, 6:54 pm   #25
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

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did it come with a pale blue or black stylus guard?
Yes, pale blue. Why?
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Old 24th May 2019, 6:57 pm   #26
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

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no sign of any 'made in England'!

... wires should never be soldered to the tags with them fitted to the cartridge. Just a few seconds of heat from a hot soldering iron anywhere near one of these cartridges will kill it stone dead,
Absolutely right, that will help many, I'm sure.

I always take my time carefully curling the manufactured little clips in place with a small tool until they're snug for a push fit, just as was done originally.
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Old 26th May 2019, 9:06 pm   #27
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

Update:

Back to square one. It seems like the output of the cartridge I just sent back is just too low, as originally a crystal type, GC2, was fitted.

But my dilemma now is that I definitely fitted a medium output ceramic cartridge to the last Dansette Hi-Fi I restored, without issue.

And yes, I know that different tone-arms on various auto-changers had different cartridges fitted, although not the whole history of them.

How do we explain the presence of the GC2 (high output) and similar configuration of amp as before?
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Old 27th May 2019, 9:59 am   #28
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

As already advised to you, ultimate and best matched cartridge for this is a BSR X5M crystal type which is stereo-compatible and at 250mV has the ideal output voltage.
The old original Garrard GC2 was an earlier generation Mono only crystal cartridge which gave an even high output. You will find very few CERAMIC cartridges that will give the output voltage level of a Crystal type.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 7:47 pm   #29
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

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As already advised to you, ultimate and best matched cartridge for this is a BSR X5M crystal type which is stereo-compatible and at 250mV has the ideal output voltage.
Hi Edward, previously advised where?? That seems a slightly annoyed response?

I'm not pretending to be an expert on cartridges. The greater frustration, though, is the risk involved in buying new old stock without knowing that they really are working.

So although your advice is welcome, I'm nervous of buying yet another crystal type which may be DOA.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 7:54 am   #30
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

The previous advice is that there is a big difference between the output voltage of a Garrard GC2 cartridge and a BSR SC11M or 12M - or even a 12H.
Given it's a Mark 1 ECL82 amplifier in the Dansette "Hi Fi", you really need a good 250mV to drive this fully.
As long as the seller will exchange, or re-imburse, do go for a BSR X5M.
No not annoyed at all, just feeling your frustrations over this!
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 2:00 pm   #31
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

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The previous advice is that there is a big difference between the output voltage of a Garrard GC2 cartridge and a BSR SC11M or 12M - or even a 12H.
Yes, and I think 12H is very hard to come by now!


Quote:
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Given it's a Mark 1 ECL82 amplifier in the Dansette "Hi Fi", you really need a good 250mV to drive this fully.
The penny has dropped, finally!

In this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...=152345&page=2 I describe the full restoration of a Mark II Hi-Fi for someone. Once I'd completed the rebuild of the amplifier, I asked around on the forum for advice and at the time, you helpfully recommended various options including the SC11M, which worked fine.

Only, of course, the Mark II version of the Dansette Hi-Fi is equipped with an ECL86 amplifier, whose triode has considerably higher voltage gain.

With parental ill-health and my child's GCSE's, I haven't given this project anything like any continuity of focus this time round, and I relied on my memory without checking back on the relative valve types to clock the significance of the ECL82's. And that's why I consciously re-bought the SC11M a while back. No wonder it didn't work, authentic or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
As long as the seller will exchange, or re-imburse, do go for a BSR X5M.
I won't bore everyone with the various twists and turns that have taken place since then... but I'll take your advice, Edward, and BSR X5M coming up!

Only, I have two experiences of buying new-in-box crystal cartridges, only to find that they are no-output (humidity ingress). Is this unlikely or very rare for the BSR X5M?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Huggins View Post
...feeling your frustrations over this!
Just a little! We'll get there in the end, always do!
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Last edited by astral highway; 12th Jun 2019 at 2:23 pm.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 2:42 pm   #32
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

The good news is that the x5M or H can usually be repaired, the internal contacts tarnish over time. Fiddly but entirely possible.
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Old 12th Jun 2019, 6:02 pm   #33
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

I have to say that in my opinion it's nonsense that an SC11M won't work with an ECL82, it'll work with both an ECL82 and an ECL86, if it doesn't, then there's got to be something else wrong, such as a faulty cartridge as first thought.

Edit: Just to add that the above is basing this on the fact that you had no output whatsoever when using that cartridge.

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Old 12th Jun 2019, 6:26 pm   #34
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

I'm certainly not saying that a BSR SC11M will not work with an ECL82 amplifier. It's just that the sensisitivity of the ECL82 version is lower than the ECL86 version (in which the triode has a similar gain to that of an ECC83) and that the BSR X5M has a higher output to compensate for this.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 11:07 am   #35
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

Quote:
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...the sensisitivity of the ECL82 version is lower than the ECL86 version (in which the triode has a similar gain to that of an ECC83) and that the BSR X5M has a higher output to compensate for this.
That's a helpful clarification, Edward. Thanks for taking the time to contribute.

Do you have a personal view/experience on the reliability of 'new in box' /NOS crystal cartridges? I mean specifically in relation to moisture damage or that failure mode? Are some more prone than others?

Just curious after a couple of experiences.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 11:51 am   #36
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

I have taken to importing high-output cartridges (an expensive option with current exchange rates + shipping) as they are no longer available in Europe. But what can arrive as a perfect looking NOS item can be DOA. This has happened 3 times.
Some re-manufuctured cartridges available in the UK (esp. Ronette crystal or ceramic copies) can vary in quality. I have recently bought a new re-manufacturered BSR TC8H (known as a HTC8) and it was asbolutely fine. But any reputable seller will re-imburse if found out to be dud or down in output.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 12:42 pm   #37
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

Hi Edward, I realised that you were not saying that there was no output when using a medium output cartridge with an ECL82 amplifier, that's why I edited my post to clarify what I meant. You'll see by the timing on the posts that you were still typing your post as I posted my 'edit', then your post was delayed, so I didn't spot it until today (I really wish they'd stop delaying your posts - I find it's really unhelpful and confusing, and have done on several previous occasions). Unless I'm misunderstanding things, it seemed to be thought that a SC11M cartridge would have no output when connected to an ECL82 amplifier and I think (hope) that all of us on this thread know that that's simply not true - wrong information soon spirals out of control, so needed to be knocked on the head PDQ. By coincidence as I'm typing this post, I'm actually looking at a particular record player just a few feet away from me that has an ECL82 type amplifier and is fitted with a SC12M cartridge and I can tell you all that it has loads of output. There's not a lot of difference between the SC11M and the SC12M.

We know the gain difference between the ECL82 and ECL86 valve triode sections, but in reality with the amplifier design with feedback etc., there won't be that much difference between the two I wouldn't have thought.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 5:33 pm   #38
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

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Unless I'm misunderstanding things, it seemed to be thought that a SC11M cartridge would have no output when connected to an ECL82 amplifier and I think (hope) that all of us on this thread know that that's simply not true...
Given the prominence of threads on this site, I can understand your keen intention to make sure there are no misunderstandings; people of all levels of ability read what we say here.

To be absolutely clear, a number of things happened, all because of independent variables.

1) The original cartridge measured no output and was returned. I won't repeat any speculation about its quality.

2) A second, Ronette cartridge that was NOS and 'new in the box' measured no output. This is fine: as Edward says, it can happen with crystal cartridges and I took a risk. This part of the story I haven't shared before.

3) I didn't initially clock the significance of my ECL82 version of the Dansette vs. its ECL86 successor.

I'm sure there would be some (acceptable) output with the cartridges you mention, but I'd like the best output possible, so I'm still going with Edwards' recommendation.

To be fair, it's extremely unlikely that anyone will have such a journey as mine with this particular restoration. I have fitted many cartridges before as the completion stage of a restoration and things have been fine.

So it's all a bit of an outlier experience!
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 6:08 pm   #39
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

You'll be fine with a BSR X5M. I use them in nearly everything, that's to say them and the Chinese black and red ones at just over a quid a go. I wouldn't want to be paying the going rate for the X5M that's being asked now. I was lucky enough to buy a stash from John Birkett in Lincoln a few years ago, they worked out at three quid each at the time, although my stock is fast running out. I had one faulty one out of the batch and when I run out I'll dissect the faulty one and repair it if I can. It's likely to be tarnished connections inside as Johnny hadn't stored them very well. He doesn't have any more old stock unfortunately, and I think I actually bought the last batch that he had. At the time I just bought them for the replacement stylus as they worked out cheaper than just buying the stylus on its own from other suppliers, getting a free cartridge thrown in was just a bonus.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 8:53 pm   #40
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Default Re: Garrard AT-6 stereo cartridge, or whole headshell replacement?

The problem with the ceramic cartridges is lower output.
They became more widely used when everything went "transistor" and plenty of amplifier gain was avaliable.
so even the "H" versions of the cartridges do not fully load a 2 stage (ECL80 ECL82 0r ECL86) amplifier and certainly not the single pentode type. (EL84 EL41 UL84 UL41)
This has been discussed many times.
The best solution is a preamp of high input impedance possibly using a FET transistor.
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