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Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets.

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Old 13th Mar 2023, 4:58 am   #1
em536716
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Default Using vintage capacitors in restorations

For sometime now, I’ve accumulated a large stock of vintage capacitors. A lot of Mustard types, metal cased Sprague (and I think maybe TCC) types. I also use a lot of genuine RS grey coloured electrolytic, axial smoothing capacitors, mostly for bypass and sometimes across HT. As well as this, dual section RS branded caps, and a handful of 33uf blue Hunts types (and another brand I can’t think of)

Finally, in terms of vintage caps, I have a wide range of PF valued caps from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Those small red dog boned shaped ones - a lot of mica covered in wax. I’ve also got a growing collection of green USSR capacitors which are PIO and I have found to be really reliable and fit in with other components under the chassis.

A lot of my stock parts are from the 60s onwards - almost everything before then is unreliable which uses wax and paper!

That’s not to say I don’t stock modern components. I do have a lot of modern Axial, and through-hole type polyester caps.

My question is this - am I wasting my time using these components and should I just chuck them all in the bin? Am I silly for wanting to use these parts?

When I restore vintage valve stuff, I tend to dislike the look of modern components under the chassis - and actually have found the components I’ve mentioned above, are really reliable.

I periodically update and check my stock, and test batch one of each valued cap for leakage - and I’ve never found a bad one. In terms of capacitance - with 3 capacitance meters used, all show correct capacitance to the corresponding components (within a 15 percent tolerance, if not less)

I would like to know if anyone else uses vintage components in their restorations, or if you stick to modern components.
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 8:26 am   #2
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

You can chuck them in my bin

Seriously no, I'd not use anything PIO dielectric, though those metal cased ones do have value, for some reason they are seen as desirable by some audiophile 'types'.

The usual suspects are well documented, waxies, bumblebeesblack and brown Hunts, etc., don't think of installing them in anything valuable.

The electrolytic types, riveted lead axials are often dodgy, but I'd want to test them thoroughly before use. Mullard mustards, and the little red ceramic capacitors are usually OK.

The ones you don't want or trust, don't test them, list them as 'NOS untested collectors items' on your favourite internet platform, they will sell!
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 9:12 am   #3
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

You name lots of different types and makes of 'old' caps and ask the question are you wasting your time using these components? There's no single answer. Every different type, and of those maybe even individual caps would have to be checked for performance before deeming them useable. There's old, and there's 'old old'. A lot of my component stash comprises ones borrowed from my employer in the 70s and 80s and I generally trust to be perfectly good - that doesn't necessarily include electrolytics that would need reforming. But by and large I don't tend to use oddment components from the 60s and earlier. I got over my own thoughts about using modern looking components for under chassis use years ago.
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 9:27 am   #4
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Electrolytic capacitors have a wear-out mechanism. They aren't electrochemical devices like batteries. Their real dielectric is aluminium oxide which is a perfectly fine bona-fide inert dielectric. Their huge capacitance is achieved by having the oxide formed over the surface of a textured aluminium foil electrode. This introduces the problem of how do you get the second electrode to intimately follow the craggy texture? The solution (pun, sorry!) is a conductive liquid backed up by the second alumium foil electrode. This works, but is non-ideal in two ways, firstly it is resistive, spoiling the loss factor of the capacitor - dominating the ESR. Secondly, the liquid is water based and with the heating from carrying current along with heat inside sets, it tries to evaporate. Sealed cans slow down this evaporation, but no seal is perfect and water vapour escapes around the rubber seals insulating the connections.

Look an a good data sheet and you'll see statements of average life expectancy at given temperatures. You can buy longer life capacitors with larger cases, holding reserves of the gungy electrolyte. Higher temperature rating means better grades of seals to hold the highewr vapour pressure.

So to check old electrolytics, do an insulation check to find electrically leaky ones where the oxise dielectric has thinned, check the capacitance. But also dip the tank with an ESR measurement to see if there is water remaining in the electrolyte. As it dries, it shrinks and the resistivity goes up.

Mica capacitors are usually OK, both rough tolerance larger value decouplers and smaller value stable RF ones (Rather different ceramic properties) Polystyrene RF capacitors can be fine, but some have failing connections from the lead out wites to the foils. Plastic film ones are generally not badnwith a few rogue types.

Paper dielectrics are best avoided, and "Mixed Dielectric" capacitors have paper in them and all paper's vices.

Tantalums don't dry out, but they are electrically fragile and prone to going up in flames.

Carbon comp resistors are prone to drifting upwards in value, especially high value ones and they are very very noisy.

Carbon film resistors are a bit more stable but still noisy.

Metal oxide are a lot better

Metal film are pretty much the best and also close to the theoretical thermal noise floor.

Wirewound are OK too.

Thick film surface mount resistors are usuallu Tantalum nitride or Ruthenium oxide. Both are a lot noisier than metal film.

David
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 10:05 am   #5
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

It depends on the brand of electrolytic capacitor. The orange sleeved Plessey ones have an astonishing life. I have not seen one be unserviceable. If they have sat for a long time unenergized, I *might* reform them, but often that is just not necessary. We're talking 50 years after manufacture.

The real rogue is the Sprague "Twist lock" electrolytics. These were favoured by Tektronix and General Radio. The failure mechanism is not loss of electrolyte. The problem is the negative connection inside. That was crimped to the outer can, and over the decades electrolytic effects bewteen two grades of aluminium rots through the internal connection. So the capacitor goes open circuit.

Dremel off the end plate, and the failure mechanism is clear - the separator is still wet, with no electrolyte loss. But the ribbon like connection has rotted through at the crimp point.

They are a sod to replace. Tektronix used to solder them in. With all four twists twisted. Getting them out without trashing the pad or the through hole plating is no one's idea of a fun afternoon. And General Radio was worse - they were wedded to single layer paxolin circuit boards. Removing a Twist Lock from one of those is a very tricky thing indeed.

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Old 13th Mar 2023, 11:18 am   #6
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Hello,

Regards using NOS or salvaged parts..., recently, I’ve successfully made five guitar amplifiers using a combination of new, NOS and salvaged parts.

I’m careful with the NOS and salvaged parts I use and thoroughly check them. As regards NOS and salvaged resistors I use carbon film parts by Welwyn, Phier and Iskra. The Erie ‘100’ high stabs test OK.

Obviously, the electrolytic capacitors are new, but I’ve used ‘salvaged’ Mullard C296 and Silver Mica capacitors after they have been thoroughly checked for leakage and capacitance at the rated voltage. The pots and sockets and the B9A valve bases are new.

I wouldn't use any parts like TCC PIO, Hunts and Wax etc., etc., capacitors in these builds.

Terry
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 12:02 pm   #7
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Yes, I agree with Craig. Those orange Plessey electrolytics are super reliable, as are similar military spec ones.
I've tested heaps of old electrolytics for myself & others, with a view to Reforming(a procedure well documented in many Forum threads). A careful examination of mechanical soundness is always advised, as is a jolly good "Meggering". After examination & insulation testing, about a third failed. Then about half of the remaining failed to achieve minimal leakage current & close uF values after the laboriously slow reforming procedure.
Many VR folk these days re-stuff outer cans for appearance sake. The BVWS sell heaps of excellent brand new electrolytics for this purpose.

Regards, David
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 12:07 pm   #8
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

When I'm fixing something vintage for myself, I almost always use NOS or recycled 60s or 70s capacitors. Mullard tubular polyesters are nearly indestructible, and RS, Arco, Anodeon, and Philips polys haven't given trouble either, except the Philips "tropical fish" axials which have fragile encapsulation and tend to lose leads. Old electrolytics need to be checked and reformed of course, but I've found that Rubycon caps are almost always OK, and Panasonic/RS, Matsushita, and Elna caps can last for decades too. Notice these are all Japanese made. Philips electros aren't bad, but only if they're unused.
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 1:08 pm   #9
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Quote:
I would like to know if anyone else uses vintage components in their restorations, or if you stick to modern components.
It depends what I'm trying to achieve, and what we mean by 'restoration.' Occasionally, 'restoration' means not making something work, but undoing damage that is not itself part of the history that we value. By definition, this forum's community collectively places a high value on functionality but it's not the only interest that a vintage piece can have. Also, because the vintage radio hobby scene is not often focused on museum-style conservation, the boundary between conservation and restoration sometimes gets blurred.

To decide on the approach, I would be thinking as a curator about what the unit's future will be in 10, 50, 100 years. What will people learn from seeing it, using it, handling it, studying it with a microscope? Do we want it to work now; do we want it to work for as long as possible; are we going to want to put things back to how they were when it left the factory, once some irreplaceable part (e.g. CRT) fails and renders it unusable forever?

Often, I don't need to approach the conflicts head-on. I don't need to listen to three DAC90As at once, so I can keep one completely original (to look at) and overhaul another for best performance (to listen to.) This disposes of the need to make everything that works also look as close to original as possible. The overhauled one would typically have modern components fitted in whatever way a competent service tech would have fitted them in its heyday. If it so happens that NOS components could be fitted with equal success, then I will do that. For example, replacing leaky paper caps with C296 mustards would be ideal, as they are comparable in reliability and performance to modern ones but have a timeless look that doesn't disrupt the visual continuity of an older chassis so much. But I would not replace leaky paper caps with any other kind of suspect cap that just happens to be OK at the moment, in something that is expected to work, because a competent service tech wouldn't do that.

Sometimes the choice of restoration approach a lot harder. We have an Eidophor TV projector from 1961. These machines were huge, expensive, complicated and vanishingly rare; we'll never own another. It's like a physics lab in a wardrobe, to produce a picture of modest brightness and resolution, and poor contrast. Our machine is as-found and will not work without extensive and invasive overhaul. Once finished, we have one spare cathode that will last 25 hours, after which it will become inoperative again. It would be most informative and valuable to see our machine work, so that we could re-photograph its results. Then people could see and learn about the effects it produced ever after, although the machine itself would be conserved non-working. But perhaps the overhaul would reveal some reason why it will never work again. It's hard to predict how much success we would have. What components would I use in that? Maybe modern ones, with the intention of putting the originals back where they came from once the test / demo / recording run was completed. I'll be seeking additional curatorial opinions before undoing the first screw though.

Items that have undergone brutal mods and hacks during their lives are sometimes worth conserving as-is, as a record of the making-do and fudging that used to happen. But then there are those that need to be put right again as a record of what the maker made, without having to work. In that case we have the delightful opportunity to fit all the correct, original types of components that hobby restorers gleefully bin on sight. They 'rip 'em out' and we rip 'em back in again!
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 2:11 pm   #10
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

To me, unless we're talking of a one-of-a-kind museum piece like Lucien's 1961 projector, (and let's be honest, most of us likely spend most our time on domestic/consumer-grade audio and video kit that sold in large numbers), it makes no sense to keep *everything* original if that means the item has no practical use or functionality. A record player with a duff TC8 cart and selenium rectifier, say, is just a paperweight. That said, I believe in reversible mods. And we're talking component level, not doing things like gutting a vintage TV and putting a LCD in the carcass!

There's another argument about conservation here. A non-working item is more likely to end up in the skip than one which actually does something. It's a bit pedantic to worry about what it looks like inside when the only time that ever gets seen is when repairs are needed. If NOS parts are available I use them, but if there 's a risk of those parts causing damage if they fail, or of reliability becoming a problem, I would use more modern components.

I have heard, and have some sympathy with, the restuffing argument for things like capacitors. The danger there is that someone ignorant of the sets history would in a preliminary inspection likely remove them and bin them thinking they were the original unreliable parts. I often keep the originals in a bag just in case though
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Old 13th Mar 2023, 5:31 pm   #11
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

I've just finished a rather lengthy restoration of a Leak Stereo 20 for one of my offspring and had bought in new Electrolytics to re-stuff the original Cans.

It was also suggested in my thread on here that New F&T 32 + 32uF replacements be used.

Before re-stuffing I thought I'd measure the new and original components.

Originals:-
C13 Red 31.84uF ESR 0.62R
C12 Yell 29.46uF ESR 0.54R
C10 Red 33.02uF ESR 0.48R
C11 Yell 32.88uF ESR 0.47R

I did measure leakage which was low but didn't record it.

Now the Nichicon CY(M) series 32uF 500V 125Degs C

1 30.62uF ESR 1.14R
2 30.74uF ESR 1.18R
3 30.42uF ESR 1.20R
4 30.74uF ESR 1.16R

Finally the F&T 32+32uF 500V

1 33.40uF ESR 1.47R
2 33.16uF ESR 1.96R
3 33.40uF ESR 1.49R
4 32.69uF ESR 1.98R

So What to do? The originals measure better than the new replacements as far as ESR is concerned. Rightly or wrongly I've left the originals in and it works just fine with HT ripple as would be expected. I wasn't looking forward to re-stuffing the cans anyway.

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Old 13th Mar 2023, 6:41 pm   #12
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

There's plenty of room below the chassis to install wire-ended types neatly, so no advantage in stuffing the original cans. The S20 that I'm listening to now, like the one you describe, has usable 32+32s. However in this one they are not in use, with replacement Evox industrial types fitted underneath. The originals are however wired to HT through suitably high resistance, in order to keep them formed up without any risk to the transformer or rectifier in the event of failure. Therefore I could switch back to using the originals with 5 minutes work if I wanted.

I have seen new blue-sleeved cans standing through the chassis of various examples. Since the originals were painted to match the chassis it seems inappropriate to remove them even if one adheres to the doctrine of carrying out a sound engineering job of the repair without fakery or subterfuge. One can debate the significance of the appearance of a chassis in a box, but one with a display finish from new ought to be kept that way and a repair by the manufacturers themselves would certainly have done so.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 7:57 pm   #13
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Pragmatically, I don't put a value on appearance or using 'vintage parts' in any of my gear; I want it to be reliable - performing as-well-as-original, or preferably better-than-original.

About the only 'vintage' parts I'll use are Mustards. I'm happy to throw out Waxies, Philips 'tar-bombs' and such, replacing them with nice yellow MKT/MKP parts, the yellowness advertising my reliablility-minded diligence. Similarly, I'll use modern cracked-carbon resistots to replace the nasty-noisy-and-drifty carbon-stick types.

Electrolytics, again - those from the 40s/50s/60s are often irredeemably-low-capacitance/leaky [a bunch in a HRO receiver you could tell they were useless because they were suspiciously light, and rattled when shook!]

Modern 105C electrolytics are nice. Again, I like the 'look' of an under-chassis with modern components, showing that the radio has been re-worked and will likely be working to-spec in 20 years time.

Tantalums... don't get me worked-up about them unless you have a straitjacket and a syringe of nembutal to hand...
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 8:21 pm   #14
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

I can only reiterate much of what's been said. Steve's point about evaluating parts on an individual basis is important. Some types, e.g ancient tants (fail short), Frako electrolytics, Rifa X2 caps should be replaced on sight. Others such as Japanese electrolytics from Rubycon can go on indefinitely (my experience mirrors that of Sue with these types). I think that the only hard and fast rule is to replace known rogues such as Rifas, regardless of how they test today.

Assuming the previous person did a decent job and didn't yank up tracks and leave flux gunk everywhere, I find it reassuring when I open up an old piece of kit and see Panasonic / Nichicon etc. Considering the damage that some of the rogue passives can cause, I have zero sentiment towards original passives in particular.

NB - the gold coloured Frako electrolytics don't just leak green gunk that's difficult to remove, but unusually for an electrolytic, they can pass DC. They're typically seen in '70s audio and this propensity to pass DC can lead to some odd faults such as volume controls triggering DC protection in amps when moved.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 9:17 pm   #15
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

There’s a lot of interesting discussion going on and I’m taking notes.

I dislike using tantalum caps in general and try to stay clear. In fact the only types I have in stock are surface mount PCB types. As a side note, I think it is worth discussing the importance to properly match the spec of certain components, to the originals data sheet. Let me be clear, I doubt for a second that on a radio, television or amplifier from the 1970s, it doesn’t matter, however, I have found that sensitive circuits such as power rails, feeding ICs, processors and such on computer circuit boards, and even broadcast type monitors are very delicate.

A lot of this kit uses those silver circle electrolytic type caps which mount flush onto the board. These are notorious at failing, leaking cap juice all over the PCB, damaging components, traces and pads. It’s common for some people to either replace these types with the same style of capacitor. This is perfectly fine but I’m conscious about the failure rate of this type of capacitor, breaking down and leaking again, in the future. An alternative is using yellow tant surface mount capacitors. They are slightly smaller, and of course, their characteristics are certainly different because they are not made the same. A 47uf electrolytic. capacitor would not have the same specification as that of a tantalum counterpart. ESR, ripple current, temperature standards, and so on. As I mentioned before, I don’t believe this matters at all in old analog kit. But newer more complex gear which makes use of ICs, and so on, this could potentially cause issues. That risk is of course small, but still there’s a risk there.

Well - what’s my point. I have in the past found that the only reliable option is to use radial capacitors in place of the silver circle types. Sony actually did this themselves, on some of the PCBs found on their broadcast gear.

Back onto vintage caps, later tonight I’ll upload some photos of what I use here.

Today I was checking some components and found that a handful of my RS 50uf, 12v bypass capacitors have failed. The capacitance reading in the 100s on all, and ESR claims to be dead 0. On a multimeter, ohms measures less than 1 Meg on all. So they’ve all been put in the bin

I think there are some instances where modern components work in place better than the originals, or vintage period caps. Little green polyester capacitors fit well between heater and ground on TV22 RF deck chassis and similar. The size makes them easy to work with.

I’ve tried restuffing capacitors and I’ll admit that I am not good at it. With my ongoing prewar TV restoration, if decided that the only restuffed capacitors will be the chassis mounted metal canned caps. I personally do not like the look of restuffed capacitors - wax types. Did they look horrible and waxy when they were made, or were they quite clean?

Whilst I’m talking about my Marconi prewar set, I’ve actually used a combination of mullard mustards and Russian green .047 types in there.

I think the point isn’t, at least for me, isn’t to make items look original, I just personally enjoy using older components. To me they are more aesthetically pleasing to look at, compared to yellow capacitors

I’ve got a big unorganised stash of Philips electrolytic capacitors. They are all these small metal canned types, with blue wrapper around. Axial. I’ve tested a handful of them. Most are nesting 10 percent of value but ESR is reasonable.

Some discussion on smoothing cans. I’ve found you can measure the internal resistance of the sections. If resistance isn’t greater then, say around 20meg, it’s likely the cap is leaky some. Also if the value is way off.

I tend to only replace multi section canned capacitors when they are bad, otherwise I just keep them in there. If I do replace them, I normally throw in some axial smoothing caps or use a dual section eri(?) types
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Old 15th Mar 2023, 8:40 pm   #16
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Hello,

Here’s a 100uF HT cap that I removed from from a vintage Marshall guitar amplifier that was in for a valve change and bias job.
The amp was working perfectly and had been doing so for years. I noticed that a panel mounting bolt was screwed right into this cap, I don't think I'll reform this one for re-use.

Amazing or what?
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Old 16th Mar 2023, 6:59 pm   #17
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Eeeek!!

I would suspect that the aluminium foils around the screw-penetration had been burned away by the HT arcing, sufficiently that normal operation could continue relatively-unaffected.

In times-past I came across a few 'exploded' HT-smoothing electrolytics; there were some 160+80uF@350V cans intended to smooth half-wave-rectified mains in live-chassis TV sets; these were also used in a number of ham-radio transceiver/linear-amplifier designs [both commercially-produced and RSGB/Short-Wave-Magazine projects of the time], where a pair or a quad of them were strapped in series/series-parallel with suitable resistors to act as bleeders and voltage-balancing so you could get 600V for the anodes of your couple of 5B/255M or 6146B and 300V for the screens/the rest of the transmitter.

Let's just say that when a couple of these capacitors decide to explode, the aluminised-paper 'chaff' that emerges can messily occupy a surprisingly-large volume!

I don't have much of a tolerance [pun sort-of intended] for old electrolytics.
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Old 16th Mar 2023, 8:49 pm   #18
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Contributors this far probably know 5 or 10 times more about capacitors than i do, but my one basic principle would be- If this capacitor fails, what else will it take with it...and is the collateral damage going to mean hunting an unfindable and/or expensive part.

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Old 16th Mar 2023, 9:02 pm   #19
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Hmm. So are you advocating using new capacitors or vintage ones?
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Old 16th Mar 2023, 9:23 pm   #20
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Default Re: Using vintage capacitors in restorations

Put another way, i'm advocating a 40/60 mix of pessimism and consequentialism. (Spellcheck really doesn't like that word!)

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