UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Amateur and Military Radio

Notices

Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 5th Mar 2021, 11:09 pm   #61
Sparky67
Heptode
 
Sparky67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Great Barr, Sandwell, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 583
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock View Post
A quickie. What is the most power produced by mobile phone up against the skull and the duty cycle? Thanks, Steve

I think with a mobile phone at 1800MHz the ear will be in the near-field of the antenna, presuming it's near the earpiece, and the power level / duty cycle then becomes irrelevant at very low power levels on the spreadsheet. I calculated 2.6cm as the minimum 'safe' distance.


Martin
Sparky67 is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2021, 11:14 pm   #62
Panrock
Nonode
 
Panrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,525
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Thanks. What about diathermy machines where such exposure is intentional?

Steve
__________________
https://www.radiocraft.co.uk
Panrock is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2021, 11:36 pm   #63
russell_w_b
Dekatron
 
russell_w_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
Posts: 3,684
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock View Post
What about diathermy machines where such exposure is intentional?
Yes... No one has actually asked the question: 'what if RF is actually good for you?'

Diathermy machines, like MRI scanners, are operated under strictly controlled conditions by trained personnel. Rest assured the operators of such-like will be EMF-aware. I once was working on some control wiring in a high power VLF near field, and when I touched the conductors, I got a not-unpleasant warm tingle right up my arms!
__________________
Regds,

Russell W. B.
G4YLI.
russell_w_b is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2021, 9:32 am   #64
russell_w_b
Dekatron
 
russell_w_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
Posts: 3,684
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinaston1 View Post

The RA were quite firm, 2mW for a hand held device, and 10mW for a body worn transmitter; any more was dangerous we were told.
Where are body worn transmitters worn? On a belt? Excessive exposure above 400 MHz can lead to a reduction of sperm count. Granted, this is for very high levels of exposure. Above 400 MHz surface heating increases with frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinaston1 View Post
Was the RA wrong?
I would say they were acting pessimisticly on the best advice available at the time. They would have to ensure there would be absolutely NO risk whatsoever to the user (general public, again) of the mic equipment.

Remember that the guidance and legislation by NRPB, later ICNIRP and also CEMFAW, CENELEC, etc... is subject to continuous ongoing review.
__________________
Regds,

Russell W. B.
G4YLI.
russell_w_b is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2021, 10:16 am   #65
Andrew2
Nonode
 
Andrew2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dukinfield, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,033
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Just to let out the 'old groaner' hiding in me:

This is one of those ridiculous rules that shouldn't be necessary for 99% of Amateurs but we all have to prat about doing it anyway. I'm a dedicated Amateur who has been into radio since I could speak, but this kind of carp really does my head in. It may nudge me to give up and become a full-time listener, which is more or less what I've become over recent years anyway. {bnghd}
I hope there's a box to tick that says 'I've never used more than 30W on any band and I have no intention of doing so'. That'd be job done for me.
BTW, where does this leave the mobile phone? Everyone and his dog has one and they seem quite content to press the thing against their head, and how often do we pass in close proximity to someone who is using their phone?
What about the police and their handhelds?
__________________
Andy G1HBE.
Andrew2 is online now  
Old 6th Mar 2021, 4:20 pm   #66
murphyv310
Dekatron
 
murphyv310's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK.
Posts: 5,420
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Hi.
As a new amateur I found the calculator rather lacking and confusing.
I use a Silm Jim and a 5 Ele Yagi for 2 meters and as yet have to decide what route of antenna to get onto HF.
Taking into account feeder losses and antenna gain the calculator came back with distances less than two meters. The antennas are high enough up and no where near where anyone can go, see the photo.
I'm hoping to pass the intermediate soon but I'm really wondering if I'll go above 10w PEP.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20210305_172458.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	37.9 KB
ID:	228416  
__________________
Cheers,
Trevor.
MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member
murphyv310 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 1:47 am   #67
Nicola_Jayne
Tetrode
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 82
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyv310 View Post
Hi.
As a new amateur I found the calculator rather lacking and confusing.
I use a Silm Jim and a 5 Ele Yagi for 2 meters and as yet have to decide what route of antenna to get onto HF.
Taking into account feeder losses and antenna gain the calculator came back with distances less than two meters. The antennas are high enough up and no where near where anyone can go, see the photo.
I'm hoping to pass the intermediate soon but I'm really wondering if I'll go above 10w PEP.
the Ofcom calculator or the RSGB /ARRL 'front page' to it ? downloadable from here https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/emf-exposure/
Nicola_Jayne is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 2:27 pm   #68
Andrew2
Nonode
 
Andrew2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dukinfield, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,033
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Call me a conspiracy nut if you want, but I'm beginning to think Ofcom wants to get rid of the amateur bands completely so they can gobble up more spectrum to flog to the Telcom industry. Sticking onerous and confusing regs on us will drive plenty out of the hobby completely. When we are down to a rump of barely active moaners they will petition government to withdraw the allocations. We were severely reduced in our standing when we no longer had to pay for our licence, now this.
I'd better get me pills.
__________________
Andy G1HBE.
Andrew2 is online now  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 2:33 pm   #69
Steve G4WCS
Heptode
 
Steve G4WCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 632
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

I've got locked gates on the drive and if a “member of the public” were to be able to trespass onto my property and into the garage, and ignore this warning, then they would have more to worry about than RF radiation. Will do the sums though.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	B36FF2BC-925B-425C-ADE2-C73E6F9E6C5D (1).jpg
Views:	82
Size:	50.2 KB
ID:	228529  
Steve G4WCS is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 2:38 pm   #70
Aub
Nonode
 
Aub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK.
Posts: 2,033
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
Call me a conspiracy nut if you want, but I'm beginning to think Ofcom wants to get rid of the amateur bands completely so they can gobble up more spectrum to flog to the Telcom industry. Sticking onerous and confusing regs on us will drive plenty out of the hobby completely. When we are down to a rump of barely active moaners they will petition government to withdraw the allocations. We were severely reduced in our standing when we no longer had to pay for our licence, now this.
I'd better get me pills.
Absolutely
Aub G4KQL
__________________
Life's a long song, but the tune ends too soon for us all.
Aub is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 2:53 pm   #71
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Now that keeping a log book hasn't been a requirement for many years, who is to prove that you did transmit at all. Anyway I am going to use the hopeless spreadsheet and use below 10W (I only use 5W maximum on the few times I do transmit anyway), print it out and if (highly unlikely) someone comes round, that is what they will get.

Hang on a minute my handhelds put out 5W too so I should be 4.7m away when using, if I shout that loud I won't need the handheld.
 
Old 7th Mar 2021, 2:59 pm   #72
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

I'm just wondering how much EMF my dummy load/wattmeter produces with 50W shoved into it?
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 3:06 pm   #73
Panrock
Nonode
 
Panrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,525
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post

Just had a quick squint at the 'Manage Your Licence - EMF' pages:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/manage-your-licence/emf
I get a blank space on the page on the Ofcom site where the calculator is presumably supposed to be. A setting I should change on my browser perhaps? I've had no trouble downloading the RSGB spreadsheet, but this pre-determines some of the variables I want to change.

Steve
__________________
https://www.radiocraft.co.uk
Panrock is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 3:14 pm   #74
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Adding to my somewhat frivolous post earlier I have read the Ofcom document and found the attached, less than 10W for authorised equipment, as far as I can tell it is yours truly that is authorised to transmit up to 400W regardless of kit. Does this mean I have to do the analysis of a sub 10W transmitter?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ofcom.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	24.0 KB
ID:	228532  
 
Old 7th Mar 2021, 3:55 pm   #75
G6ONEDave
Octode
 
G6ONEDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Owston Ferry, North Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 1,689
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

When does the letter arrive notifying all those radio amateurs who are not RSGB members or members of any local clubs? Is this going to be an 'ignorance is no defence in law' situation, when that unexpected knock at the door occurs? The only reason I now know about this latest Ofcom news is through being a forum member and following this thread. I do not currently belong to any radio amateur club, nor am I a member of the RSGB.
Dave
__________________
Quote "All is hyperthetical, until it isn't!" (President Laura Roslin, Battlestar Galactica)
G6ONEDave is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 3:56 pm   #76
Junk Box Nick
Octode
 
Junk Box Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 1,571
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
Call me a conspiracy nut if you want, but I'm beginning to think Ofcom wants to get rid of the amateur bands completely so they can gobble up more spectrum to flog to the Telcom industry. Sticking onerous and confusing regs on us will drive plenty out of the hobby completely. When we are down to a rump of barely active moaners they will petition government to withdraw the allocations. We were severely reduced in our standing when we no longer had to pay for our licence, now this.
I'd better get me pills.
A grumpy old man writes:

The golden days of amateur radio – though these are different periods for different enthusiasts – are all long gone.

The irony of the current situation is that amateur radio equipment has become a consumer item. Plug and play and away you go. CB with a few more bands. No more lash-ups lying around the shack, exposed aerial matching units, etc., not to mention the lethal voltages.

Goodness knows what damage I’ve done to myself with full legal limit in the shack – or my parents who both lived to a ripe old age. And now I get to thinking about the number of times I’ve driven through Wychbold, ogling those enormous Radio 4 masts when doing so.

As we move towards a zero-risk society, enjoy what is left of this hobby (and some others in a similar vein), until restoring your humble vintage broadcast receiver becomes a job that can only be undertaken by those with professional qualifications.

In a hundred years everyone will have the same hobby: staying (at) home watching the telly/screen.
Junk Box Nick is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 4:19 pm   #77
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6ONEDave View Post
When does the letter arrive notifying all those radio amateurs who are not RSGB members or members of any local clubs? Is this going to be an 'ignorance is no defence in law' situation, when that unexpected knock at the door occurs? The only reason I now know about this latest Ofcom news is through being a forum member and following this thread. I do not currently belong to any radio amateur club, nor am I a member of the RSGB.
Dave
Like the OP I received an email from OFCOM.

If OFCOM don't have an email address for you I assume they'll send you a paper letter.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 4:25 pm   #78
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
a job that can only be undertaken by those with professional qualifications
No, only with the right paperwork.

I got an email from Ofcom too.
 
Old 7th Mar 2021, 5:06 pm   #79
russell_w_b
Dekatron
 
russell_w_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
Posts: 3,684
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post
And now I get to thinking about the number of times I’ve driven through Wychbold, ogling those enormous Radio 4 masts when doing so.
I think you’ll find that the impact of EMF from the Droitwich transmitter is minimal in the public domain, and is nothing to be concerned about; it has to be, by law. Much work and numerous surveys at high power broadcast sites has gone into ensuring the public levels are not exceeded.
__________________
Regds,

Russell W. B.
G4YLI.
russell_w_b is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2021, 5:39 pm   #80
Granitehill
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: York, North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 95
Default Re: OFCOM re: International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection (ICNIRP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
Call me a conspiracy nut if you want, but I'm beginning to think Ofcom wants to get rid of the amateur bands completely so they can gobble up more spectrum to flog to the Telcom industry. Sticking onerous and confusing regs on us will drive plenty out of the hobby completely. When we are down to a rump of barely active moaners they will petition government to withdraw the allocations. We were severely reduced in our standing when we no longer had to pay for our licence, now this.
I'd better get me pills.
Said in jest, I assume.

I've been hearing similar statements for as long as I've been licenced. It's probably not helpful in the present atmosphere of conspiracy theories...

Back in the real world - I suspect that Ofcom aren't happy about having to do this - they have lots of other pressures on their resources and budget, and they will want the minimum amount of enforcement commitment. (Bear in mind that the mandatory station inspections requirement was dumped years ago - to reduce costs). This activity is probably a preemptive response to head off the anti-5g conspiracy nutters. I would guess that the actual number of Ofcom site visits will be very small indeed, and only in extreme cases.

I think a polite but firm response to neighbour complaints is probably the best way forward. An ICNIRP- compliant self assessment a key to this. It's for them to demonstrate that your station is a potential hazard to them, and that their issues are reasonable (get it in writing!). A past neighbour of mine who made ominous noises was referred politely to OFCOM. Nothing further heard, of course.
__________________
John G4FDD
G-QRP 431
Granitehill is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:08 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.