Activity on 80 metres?

[G0HZU_JMR]

I have to agree with pretty much everything David G4EBT said in his long post (#14)...

Oddly enough, last night I switched on my HF radio for the first time in ages and tuned around on 80m and a few other bands. It was very noisy and any stations I did find were very uninspiring to listen to.

Like David (RW) I've been a keen SWL since childhood. I finally did the RAE about 30yrs or so ago and a few years later did the morse. But my G0 logbook is only about 6 or 7 pages deep since 1987. I rarely bother to transmit and haven't done so for years. There really isn't any reason to go on the bands because they appear to be dominated by contesters or diehards who just want to have the same routine chats about aerials and radios and propagation.

However, it wasn't always like this. I do remember being inspired as a youngster when I listened to the 10m band each summer. I often heard a retired ex pat in France/Spain who lived in and drove around in a caravan. He would allocate about 30minutes or so of his (late) afternoon to pouring a glass of wine and erecting a simple 10m dipole and would chat at length to anyone else (on the summer skip) who was chatty. Once his glass of wine was empty he packed it all away. He wasn't interested in signal reports or where anyone was, I think he just wanted to chat to anyone who could speak english and who liked a natter about life in general.

I thought he had the right (timeless) approach to the hobby but sadly there are very few people like this on the bands anymore.

[Aub]

I love 80 metre AM, but can't hear anything but the strongest signals due to interference from broadband from telephone wires, as in this thread:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=89160

The RSGB EMC engineers visited my house a few weeks ago. They took a load of measurments and evidence to present to BT, in their on-going meetings with them. Apparently BT have the ability to notch the amateur bands to prevent this but haven't implemented the software. I'm waiting to hear back. Meanwhile, I use the Web SDR sites for reception, which is cheating really!

All the best

Aub
G4KQL.

[G6Tanuki]

Originally Posted by Aub

The RSGB EMC engineers visited my house a few weeks ago. They took a load of measurments and evidence to present to BT, in their on-going meetings with them. Apparently BT have the ability to notch the amateur bands to prevent this but haven't implemented the software. I'm waiting to hear back. Meanwhile, I use the Web SDR sites for reception, which is cheating really!G4KQL.

I'm aware that - given the adaptive-ness of broadband/ADSL infrastructure - if you're troubled by such interference if you radiate a seriously-aggressive signal on certain frequencies the broadband-noise 'learns' to go away for a while.

[think of it like the 1980s when the "Poltava Pestilence" and "Russian Woodpecker" broadband OTHR radars could be made to surrender an amateur-band frequency by sending random streams of dots-and-dashes at them].

[M0AFJ, Tim]

Suffering from the same problems here, it sounds more like plasma TV interference than ADSL.
One if my neighbours recently got rid of hers and replaced it with LED, my broadband noise went down by 2 S points.

[Peter.N.]

I've got about S8 on noise on 80 and 40m, as we have no neighbours or industry I think it must be coming from within the house somewhere. I have a battery back up on the radio but the problem is if I turn the mains off I have to go round resetting everything afterwards, I will have to try one thing at a time but we have such a proliferation of SMPS's that it will take some time.

Peter

[ex seismic]

On a more positive note I was worried when we went PLT with BT Infinity but given the location of our master socket there wasn't any real choice. I looked at all the band conditions before turning it on and again afterwards and was greatly surprised to find little if any increase in noise on any HF band.

We have a detached house and the aerial is a doublet (ex 1/2 G5RV) strung between two trees. The radios are in an upstairs room.

What helped cut down noise for me especially on VHF was changing all our ethernet cables around the house to shielded ones.

Gordon

[Paul Stenning]

Although I'm not a radio amateur, this is a very interesting discussion. I think some of the points David G4EBT made are not just limited to Amateur radio but cover the whole range of topics we discuss on this website.

For example, BVWS membership is now about 1250 whereas when I became webmaster (around 1999 I think) it was about 1700. Losses are due to people dying or becoming too unwell of course, as well as lack of money and/or time, and changing interests. A look around the swapmeets reveals a distinct lack of younger people.

The internet makes it a lot easier for people to get involved without having to join a club and pay membership fees etc. Forums like this have much more discussion and content than club magazines and journals - and are two-way communication. eBay, Gumtree and the like make it easy to buy equipment and parts without leaving home.

I think with some of these collecting and restoring type hobbies it tends to be items that are within living memory - items that people had when they were younger, could get a jumble sales when younger, or remember parents and grandparents owning etc. Classic car displays have quite a lot of 70s and 80s vehicles for example, and here there is the inevitable increase in things like Dansettes, ghetto blasters, Walkmans and early home computers and video games.

Hopefully there will be a strong core of people to keep interest in earlier equipment and technology etc going - including radio amateurs. Ultimately though I think everything will eventually pass into history.

[Peter.N.]

Originally Posted by Peter.N.

I will have to try one thing at a time but we have such a proliferation of SMPS's that it will take some time.

I found it, its the broadband router PSU.

[SteveCG]

Paul,

Re: "things passing into history". What you say is true but bear in mind there are still a collection of characters who are prepared to don early 19th century Top Hats and keep early locomotives made by Trevithick going...

[Alan Stepney]

Originally Posted by Paul Stenning

I think with some of these collecting and restoring type hobbies it tends to be items that are within living memory - items that people had when they were younger, could get a jumble sales when younger, or remember parents and grandparents owning etc. Classic car displays have quite a lot of 70s and 80s vehicles for example, and here there is the inevitable increase in things like Dansettes, ghetto blasters, Walkmans and early home computers and video games.

As a contrast, a pal sells diecast models. Not the Dinky Toys we all remember but the latest high tech models that cost a fortune.
He tells me that business is booming.
He did a survey of some of his regular customers last year and most want something they can display instantly, and not have to build or paint.

It seems that the operative word is "instantly", and perhaps that is what the younger generation want for all their hobbies.
That does, of course, rule out Amateur Radio, and most of "our " activities.

[Skywave]

Originally Posted by Alan Stepney

It seems that the operative word is "instantly", and perhaps that is what the younger generation want for all their hobbies.

I don't think that that pre-dispensation is restricted exclusively to hobbies. But in fairness to the younger generation, it has always seemed to me that humans tend to be pre-wired to obtain the maximum return for the minimum 'input'.

Al.l

[SiriusHardware]

Originally Posted by Paul Stenning

Hopefully there will be a strong core of people to keep interest in earlier equipment and technology etc going - including radio amateurs. Ultimately though I think everything will eventually pass into history.

One of my various other interests is a nerdy love of steam railway locomotives: In the field of 'retro' mechanical engineering also, there is a general problem with the people with the core knowledge getting older and older and ultimately passing away without finding anyone to pass their priceless knowledge on to. There are a few young incomers, of course, exceptions to the general rule, but as a rule most such pastimes and hobbies are losing people faster than they are gaining them.

I myself don't really fit the main demographic for a steam fan, as I was just a few years old when steam on British Railways came to an end and I have no memory of steam in general use - I had an extensive model railway layout up until my mid teens, then we moved and there was no longer space for it. It wasn't until the mid noughties, and in particular the inspirational example of the crew who put together 'Tornado' (A full sized passenger express steam locomotive built from scratch) that I suddenly caught the railway bug again.

I suppose that illustrates that it is still possible to excite interest from outside the core demographic, although I am admittedly still a lot older than the generation they would ideally like to see get interested.

Amateur radio has a particular problem in that its core purpose - communication with individuals or groups of people at a remote distance - has been usurped and done better by mobile phones, computers and the internet - indeed, amateur radio itself now makes increasingly extensive use of internet links to complement existing amateur radio links and methods (which is not a bad thing, in my opinion -its a case of adapt, or die).

[Tyso_Bl]

I mostly agree with David (G4EBT) post 14, he's summed up the situation as it seems to be, the thing is what to do about it (if anything), or to let natural selection take its course.

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

Amateur radio has a particular problem in that its core purpose - communication with individuals or groups of people at a remote distance - has been usurped and done better by mobile phones, computers and the internet - indeed, amateur radio itself now makes increasingly extensive use of internet links to complement existing amateur radio links and methods (which is not a bad thing, in my opinion -its a case of adapt, or die).

SiriusHardware, you're wrong there, Amateur radios core purpose has been "self training and investigations in wireless telegraphy" that would include analog / digital, voice, data, video, and CW. The key statement is wireless, not internet, mobile phones, echolink, etc.

An amateur licence is a pretty serious qualification allowing you to design, build, certify, and operate your own equipment, and experiment with it. The net, phones are great for what they are, but they are not amateur radio.

Tell me what you're going to do when the net gets turned off, or the mobile phone system is down or turned over for priority use only? Use it just don't depend on it.

Tyso

[Radio Wrangler]

It definitely varies from hobby to hobby.

I'm a serious equestrian, hence the atavar (I'm the one on top before someone asks...)
The horsey world has no shortage of interested youngsters joining it. I was out with a few hundred other riders last Wednesday and the age spread was wide and fairly uniform.

This is an expensive hobby. You can spend as much money as you can imagine on a horse, but on average you're talking about the same league as a mid-range ICOM HF transceiver. But on top there are vets bills, a continuous supply of feed, plus stabling and grazing. Amateur radio is fairly cheap.

Training-wise, it takes a few years to become reasonably competent, and going out without the appropriate skills is positively dangerous. Wednesday saw one bystander with a broken leg, and one rider in a spinal brace. ROSPA rate it second in risk to cave-diving.

So it's dangerous, it's expensive, you get wet and cold. But it's thriving. It's also ancient. the techniques evolved over milennia. Cars, planes, motorbikes will all get you somewhere more easily, more quickly. So what keeps the interest going?

I do both, and I don't understand what is making the difference.

David

[Bazz4CQJ]

Originally Posted by Tyso_Bl

Amateur radios core purpose has been "self training and investigations in wireless telegraphy".
An amateur licence is a pretty serious qualification allowing you to design, build, certify, and operate your own equipment, and experiment with it.

I'd have to say that those assertions were true several decades ago, but I doubt that they stand up now. The RAE is a shadow of what it once was and the use of home-built equipment went in to decline as far back as the 60's.

It seems quite apparent that many of us still inside the hobby yearn for days long gone, so it is not surprising it is not attracting much new blood, at least in the UK.

It may also be worth noting that amateur radio might well have been a good stepping stone in to a life-long career in the past. But as British science and technology is now largely confined to what happens inside Universities (note our appetite for French-designed/constructed nuclear reactors, US-made Trident missiles and the job advertisments not now carried by "New Scientist"), that aspect too has largely disappeared.

B

[G0HZU_JMR]

I agree with Bazz...

I can remember the first time I played with a (pretty feeble and poorly designed) homebrew transmitter well over 30yrs ago. I could hear my voice.... MY voice on the radio and I put it there and there were no wires!

I found this to be hugely more inspiring than the SWL stuff I had been doing.
But this was decades ago...

Show the same transmitter to a teenager today and they will be instantly bored by it because they live in the modern age of wifi and 'radio' is just another everyday wireless appliance. By means of a response the teenager would probably show me their mobile phone and the latest apps that they downloaded

However, if they do find it interesting then they can get a novice licence and simply order a modern amateur radio transceiver over the internet in the same way they can order a new mobile phone or tablet.

[Tyso_Bl]

Back on topic then, activity on 80M, not from here, I can put 40dB of external attenuation in line before the S meter shows a reduction in the level of QRM. It really is something else here. I've shut off the mains running on 12v car batterys to check if its anything on site, no difference, It does start tailing of around 4.5Megs, and 5 upwards are usable.
Thats my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

[dsergeant]

If you put 40dB of attenuation in series with the antenna and it does not reduce the QRM level as shown on the s-meter you can be pretty sure the QRM is not coming in via the antenna (possibly via the mains?)..... This sort of noise up to 4.5MHz is almost certainly switch mode psu, if not in your own house in a neighbours. 80m QRM around s2 here at the moment in a 400Hz bandwidth (but no activity...)

This thread does seem to be very negative and achieving little. Remember that 80m activity will be very quiet during the summer months and what little you do hear will be after dark. But there is certainly plenty of stuff on the higher bands - although 12m and 10m are a bit quiet after the sunspot count went to zero yesterday.

Contrary to what you say, amateur radio is not dying. There is a need to get younger people interested (some letters in the latest RadCom about this, not read them yet) but listen on the bands, any mode, during a major contest and you will realise it is far from dead.

73 Dave G3YMC

[Radio Wrangler]

If you add attenuation and the level of QRM does not fall in absolute terms, then the QRM, as said is getting in some other way. In this case the attenuator worsens the intelligibility of wanted signals

If you add attenuation and the QRM falls by the same amount as the wanted signals fall, then the QRM is present in the signal from the antenna and the screening of the radio is OK, and the radio is behaving linearly. This situation is zero net benefit as the intelligibility stays the same.

If you add attenuation and the QRM falls by more than the wanted signals fall, then this is evidence that the QRM is coming down from the antenna, and that the receiver is suffering intermodulation problems. In this case the attenuation is a good thing and intelligibility should be improved.

David

[Skywave]

I agree totally with what Bazz4CQJ and Jeremy G0HZU have written.

When I was an active transmitting Amateur, it was the thrill of the technical challenge of designing and building something myself that gave me the greatest rewards. The fact that the item(s) - as designed and built - actually worked - as proved by a successful communication - was 'the icing on the cake'; 'the proof of the pudding', so to speak: successful communications provided an end target.
But when Amateur Radio began progressively to move towards professional communications techniques, my interest waned. But I still enjoy the challenge of solving a technical electronic problem using hardware. And I've gone back to being an SWL.

Al.