Hines Table Grand Gramophone - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

GOKenyon · 10th Feb 2016, 1:01 am

Hi there,
I recently acquired a beaten up looking vintage Hines machine that I am delighted with but am going to need plenty of assistance to understand further. It is in pretty poor shape externally and going to need a lot of TLC! I have yet to investigate the innards...
I want to fully restore the piece, but before going anywhere near a screwdriver, French polish etc, I want to gather as much education as I can.
So I appeal to anybody that can help with information about this fabulous talking machine, how to operate it, resurrect it etc. Any manuals or operating instructions would be a blessing. Thank you in advance...
GOK

Audio1950 · 10th Feb 2016, 10:59 am

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Hines were on of the hundreds of manufacturers of gramophones in the twenties and thirties who didn't actually make the machines. they had the cabinets made locally, then bought in the motors, soundboxes etc, from the various sources available at the time. Without pictures, it is difficult to offer advice, but the first things to check are the motor and the soundbox, (the round thing that holds the needle). Does the motor wind up fully, and run without a "bumping" noise from the spring, which indicates that the spring is gummed up with old grease? Are the rubber gaskets round the edge of the soundbox diaphragm still soft and pliable? (push a cocktail stick into the front one very gently).
Again, how to operate it depends on which type of gramophone it is, hence the need for pictures. Sorry to be negative, but asking for information on an unknown gramophone is a bit like saying "I have an old Ford car, how do I get it going?".

Please post some clear pictures of the whole machine, the motor and the soundbox, then we can give you all the advice you need.

Barry

GOKenyon · 17th Feb 2016, 9:54 pm

Hi there,
Thanks for the response.
My old Ford is just that to me

I will post pictures and give you a look see. I have yet to take a close look into the box. So when I get home from abroad, I will do that.
Thanks again for the reply. Watch this space...

DuncanLeece · 18th Feb 2016, 9:28 am

Gok

Hines gramophones are surprisingly good quality, given they are indeed a lesser known brand. The cabinets are usually a cut above the standard plywood of the time. I have three of them. My particular interest is that they are Scottish-made, and that is a rarity. All Hines machines I have seen feature a gimmick or two, from tone controls, to volume controls and battery-powered internal lighting. I expect these were sales features in the early 1920s, but most serve little function, apart from being fun!
I am not very technically minded, but I have managed to restore all my machines without much trouble... just a bit of hard work. I am sure you will manage too, and I will be delighted to help if I can. There is a good article giving the history of Hines, written by Chris Hamilton, and a moment on google should find that.
best wishes
Duncan

GOKenyon · 3rd Sep 2019, 6:27 pm

I am about to embark on a restoration of my Hines Table Gramophone.
Looking for advice, parts, general input...
Thanks in advance for any support. Much appreciated I can tell you.
Gareth

GOKenyon · 3rd Sep 2019, 10:52 pm

I have a Hines Table Gramophone that I am starting to restore.
Apart from a general wear and tear, everything seems reasonable.
I am a little unsure of the motor mechanism. Can upload pics and video to private message as large... It all seems to spin up nicely. But there appears to be no linkage between the motor and the turntable mechanism?
Also, the lever in the centre next to needle arm has a spring mechanism. What is this for and how is it supposed to operate?
Any manuals or images of similar would be greatly appreciated.
Any help gratefully accepted.
Gareth

Audio1950 · 4th Sep 2019, 10:21 am

Sorry to sound negative, Gareth, but without pictures it is almost impossible to give any advice. For instance, we need to know which motor is fitted, especially as you say in your other post that the motor doesn't appear to be connected to the turntable! Which soundbox is fitted? I for one have been a gramophone collector for many years, but have never seen a Hines machine, so have no idea what advice or parts you need.

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 5:24 pm

Hello
I seek help with the motor unit for my Hines Gramophone.
Have stripped it down for refurbishment and repair.
The Garrard 11A unit is very dirty, but more importantly has broken springs. There is no mechanism to connect the springs to the cog stems that go through the centre?
Where can I get a new unit or springs?
Is there someone out there who can explain the construction and inner workings correctly. Pictures or a video would be super.
Any advice etc gratefully received.

Regards
Gareth

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 5:33 pm

Hi there
Thanks for the post... not negative at all! I totally understand.
I have a host of pictures and video that I can share, but the issue is the limit placed by this website.
I uploaded to a fellow colleague from this forum yesterday and he advised putting a call out for further help.

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 5:48 pm

Hi there
A couple of shots showing motor unit...

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 6:01 pm

More pics...

Cheers!

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 6:04 pm

Pics

GOKenyon · 5th Sep 2019, 6:34 pm

More pics again

Audio1950 · 5th Sep 2019, 9:36 pm

Brilliant! Firstly, the motor looks to be in excellent order, and is one of the best that Garrard made. The attachment on the arm looks as though it's an automatic brake, but I can't be sure, never seen anything like it. Has the soundbox got good soft rubber gaskets round the diaphragm? (prod them gently with a cocktail stick). After all these years they probably need replacing, which is not a difficult job. Let us know if we can give you any help.

Barry

GOKenyon · 6th Sep 2019, 9:38 am

Hi Barry
Springs are damaged. Where to find new ones.
Also how do they mount to the spindles? They are not connected to anything in mine? They have a bend at the end that engages into a recess in the spindle. But this just flicks out when I place it in? Both springs. I note there is a T shaped groove in the spindles. The spring sits in the upright portion as detailed above, but what is the vertical piece for? A locking bar of some description?
I have nothing to go on here...
How does the unit transfer the spring power?
I am new to this drive system. Any descriptions appreciated... imagery too.
Cheers!

Audio1950 · 6th Sep 2019, 10:12 am

How are the springs damaged? The only thing I can see is that the centre coils are too open to engage with the recess on the spindle. Use a pair of long-nosed pliers to bend them in more, so that when the spindle is inserted, the coils of the spring grip the spindle.Then as you turn the spindle, the bend in the end of the spring will click into place into the spindle, and when the motor is reassembled and you wind it for the first time, everything will tighten up and stay in place. If by "the vertical piece" you mean that little clip that sits in the recess on the bottom plate, it is slid into the groove on the spring spindle to stop the spindle falling out, and it is essential that it is replaced properly. The energy from the unwinding spring is transferred to the motor by the large cog on the spring drum, which drives the intermediate cog, which in turn drives the turntable spindle. The speed of the turntable spindle is controlled by the governors, which in turn are controlled by the speed control lever. Hard to explain, but I hope it gives you an idea?

Techman · 6th Sep 2019, 1:54 pm

Whatever you do, don't try to remove those springs from the barrel unless you know what you're doing. They can expand to the size of a bicycle wheel under extreme force and cause serious injury to either you or anyone else stood nearby.

How did those spring ends get like that? That can only happen if the governor is released with the springs wound up, which can also be very dangerous if your fingers are in the gears and can also cause damage to the gears themselves, or possibly the motor has been forced to run backwards by hand.

Replacement springs for a large double spring motor cost around £50 each, so £100 possibly for that motor - hopefully you won't need them. The old black grease that can be seen doesn't look too good, so the springs may have to be removed anyway. You need to take great care working on a gram motor, if you don't know, then ask - it looks like Barry has it mostly covered so far.

GOKenyon · 6th Sep 2019, 4:45 pm

Hi there
Thanks for the update.
Have taken a couple more pics.
I bought the unit in this condition.
Someone has obviously tried to repair the motor I think.
One spring has a tear...!! The other one appears to engage in the spindle slot, and will turn, but I am not sure it will retain there? Pictures attempt to show that...
So from your description am I to understand that there is a locking pin in the spindle groove? Nothing present in this motor or spring casement.
How is power transferred? I see no connection between the cranked spring and the turntable spring? I am not sure if that is an apt description!
When I broke open the spring casement (screws already had some blade damage to head, so was not very optimistic at what I would find) I just had two springs and a separating disc/washer. The two cogged spindles came out throught the centre hole with no tension or persuasion beforehand... they were not attached to anything...

I think I need one new spring at least...
Can you suggest a supplier?

Off to US for 3 weeks working so will not he able to work on this for a while, but can get parts ordered etc...
Are new, sealed spring units available? Would prefer to use original, but that may be an option.

Again, I appreciate all the advice to date. Thanks

Audio1950 · 6th Sep 2019, 5:57 pm

The clip I'm referring to can be seen on the third picture of the first four. It's in the depression on the bottom plate, and slides into the groove on the spindle that goes through the springs. Other than that, I can't understand what "vertical piece" you are referring to that could be a locking bar. The two cogged spindles are not attached to anything other than the centre coils of the springs. If you look at the large cog on the springs, look at what they turn, and then what that turns, you'll see how power is transferred to the turntable. What do you mean by the "cranked" spring? The only other spring other than the two mainsprings is the one wrapped around the winding handle shaft, which, if you're using American terminology, could be called a "crank spring".

Barry

GOKenyon · 7th Sep 2019, 8:11 am

Hi Barry
Thanks for your patience...
I think I get it...

The 1st picture of the last set shows a "tear/split" 1cm to the right of the pliers... heavy in old grease presently.
It goes 2/3rds of the way through the spring.
I will attempt to clean it, squeeze the shape to engage properly in the spindle groove. But it may be a replacement is required. Again, any supplier would be useful to know.
I will look at the locking mechanism you refer to. Can you refer to the title of the pic you refer to? Date/time it was taken? Want to make sure I fully understand the pic you refer to.

Currently at Glasgow airport about to leave for SFO.
So will be unable to pursue project for a month...

I will open up the sound box on return. Have yet to examine this. Again, it is likely that this will need parts as you guys expect. So a supplier name would be a useful asset.

The brake mechanism shows corrosion and has springs. It is a little seized up currently, but has a leather plug in it... Not sure of this functionality but will help to work this out when I can get the motor back up and running.

Thanks again for all the support and advice received. Appreciate this greatly...

Gareth

10th Feb 2016, 1:01 am	#1
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi there, I recently acquired a beaten up looking vintage Hines machine that I am delighted with but am going to need plenty of assistance to understand further. It is in pretty poor shape externally and going to need a lot of TLC! I have yet to investigate the innards... I want to fully restore the piece, but before going anywhere near a screwdriver, French polish etc, I want to gather as much education as I can. So I appeal to anybody that can help with information about this fabulous talking machine, how to operate it, resurrect it etc. Any manuals or operating instructions would be a blessing. Thank you in advance... GOK

10th Feb 2016, 10:59 am	#2
Audio1950 Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Whittlesey, near Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK. Posts: 3,761	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi, and welcome to the forum. Hines were on of the hundreds of manufacturers of gramophones in the twenties and thirties who didn't actually make the machines. they had the cabinets made locally, then bought in the motors, soundboxes etc, from the various sources available at the time. Without pictures, it is difficult to offer advice, but the first things to check are the motor and the soundbox, (the round thing that holds the needle). Does the motor wind up fully, and run without a "bumping" noise from the spring, which indicates that the spring is gummed up with old grease? Are the rubber gaskets round the edge of the soundbox diaphragm still soft and pliable? (push a cocktail stick into the front one very gently). Again, how to operate it depends on which type of gramophone it is, hence the need for pictures. Sorry to be negative, but asking for information on an unknown gramophone is a bit like saying "I have an old Ford car, how do I get it going?". Please post some clear pictures of the whole machine, the motor and the soundbox, then we can give you all the advice you need. Barry Last edited by Audio1950; 10th Feb 2016 at 11:05 am.

17th Feb 2016, 9:54 pm	#3
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi there, Thanks for the response. My old Ford is just that to me I will post pictures and give you a look see. I have yet to take a close look into the box. So when I get home from abroad, I will do that. Thanks again for the reply. Watch this space...

18th Feb 2016, 9:28 am	#4
DuncanLeece Pentode Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Banff, Aberdeenshire, UK. Posts: 104	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Gok Hines gramophones are surprisingly good quality, given they are indeed a lesser known brand. The cabinets are usually a cut above the standard plywood of the time. I have three of them. My particular interest is that they are Scottish-made, and that is a rarity. All Hines machines I have seen feature a gimmick or two, from tone controls, to volume controls and battery-powered internal lighting. I expect these were sales features in the early 1920s, but most serve little function, apart from being fun! I am not very technically minded, but I have managed to restore all my machines without much trouble... just a bit of hard work. I am sure you will manage too, and I will be delighted to help if I can. There is a good article giving the history of Hines, written by Chris Hamilton, and a moment on google should find that. best wishes Duncan

3rd Sep 2019, 6:27 pm	#5
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Hines Restoration Project I am about to embark on a restoration of my Hines Table Gramophone. Looking for advice, parts, general input... Thanks in advance for any support. Much appreciated I can tell you. Gareth

3rd Sep 2019, 10:52 pm	#6
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Garrard 11A info I have a Hines Table Gramophone that I am starting to restore. Apart from a general wear and tear, everything seems reasonable. I am a little unsure of the motor mechanism. Can upload pics and video to private message as large... It all seems to spin up nicely. But there appears to be no linkage between the motor and the turntable mechanism? Also, the lever in the centre next to needle arm has a spring mechanism. What is this for and how is it supposed to operate? Any manuals or images of similar would be greatly appreciated. Any help gratefully accepted. Gareth

4th Sep 2019, 10:21 am	#7
Audio1950 Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Whittlesey, near Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK. Posts: 3,761	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Sorry to sound negative, Gareth, but without pictures it is almost impossible to give any advice. For instance, we need to know which motor is fitted, especially as you say in your other post that the motor doesn't appear to be connected to the turntable! Which soundbox is fitted? I for one have been a gramophone collector for many years, but have never seen a Hines machine, so have no idea what advice or parts you need.

5th Sep 2019, 5:24 pm	#8
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Garrard 11A support Hello I seek help with the motor unit for my Hines Gramophone. Have stripped it down for refurbishment and repair. The Garrard 11A unit is very dirty, but more importantly has broken springs. There is no mechanism to connect the springs to the cog stems that go through the centre? Where can I get a new unit or springs? Is there someone out there who can explain the construction and inner workings correctly. Pictures or a video would be super. Any advice etc gratefully received. Regards Gareth

5th Sep 2019, 5:33 pm	#9
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi there Thanks for the post... not negative at all! I totally understand. I have a host of pictures and video that I can share, but the issue is the limit placed by this website. I uploaded to a fellow colleague from this forum yesterday and he advised putting a call out for further help.

5th Sep 2019, 5:48 pm	#10
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi there A couple of shots showing motor unit... Attached Thumbnails

5th Sep 2019, 6:01 pm	#11
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone More pics... Cheers! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by GOKenyon; 5th Sep 2019 at 6:25 pm.

5th Sep 2019, 6:04 pm	#12
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Pics Attached Thumbnails Last edited by GOKenyon; 5th Sep 2019 at 6:20 pm.

5th Sep 2019, 6:34 pm	#13
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone More pics again Attached Thumbnails

5th Sep 2019, 9:36 pm	#14
Audio1950 Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Whittlesey, near Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK. Posts: 3,761	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Brilliant! Firstly, the motor looks to be in excellent order, and is one of the best that Garrard made. The attachment on the arm looks as though it's an automatic brake, but I can't be sure, never seen anything like it. Has the soundbox got good soft rubber gaskets round the diaphragm? (prod them gently with a cocktail stick). After all these years they probably need replacing, which is not a difficult job. Let us know if we can give you any help. Barry

6th Sep 2019, 9:38 am	#15
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi Barry Springs are damaged. Where to find new ones. Also how do they mount to the spindles? They are not connected to anything in mine? They have a bend at the end that engages into a recess in the spindle. But this just flicks out when I place it in? Both springs. I note there is a T shaped groove in the spindles. The spring sits in the upright portion as detailed above, but what is the vertical piece for? A locking bar of some description? I have nothing to go on here... How does the unit transfer the spring power? I am new to this drive system. Any descriptions appreciated... imagery too. Cheers!

6th Sep 2019, 10:12 am	#16
Audio1950 Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Whittlesey, near Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK. Posts: 3,761	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone How are the springs damaged? The only thing I can see is that the centre coils are too open to engage with the recess on the spindle. Use a pair of long-nosed pliers to bend them in more, so that when the spindle is inserted, the coils of the spring grip the spindle.Then as you turn the spindle, the bend in the end of the spring will click into place into the spindle, and when the motor is reassembled and you wind it for the first time, everything will tighten up and stay in place. If by "the vertical piece" you mean that little clip that sits in the recess on the bottom plate, it is slid into the groove on the spring spindle to stop the spindle falling out, and it is essential that it is replaced properly. The energy from the unwinding spring is transferred to the motor by the large cog on the spring drum, which drives the intermediate cog, which in turn drives the turntable spindle. The speed of the turntable spindle is controlled by the governors, which in turn are controlled by the speed control lever. Hard to explain, but I hope it gives you an idea?

6th Sep 2019, 1:54 pm	#17
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Whatever you do, don't try to remove those springs from the barrel unless you know what you're doing. They can expand to the size of a bicycle wheel under extreme force and cause serious injury to either you or anyone else stood nearby. How did those spring ends get like that? That can only happen if the governor is released with the springs wound up, which can also be very dangerous if your fingers are in the gears and can also cause damage to the gears themselves, or possibly the motor has been forced to run backwards by hand. Replacement springs for a large double spring motor cost around £50 each, so £100 possibly for that motor - hopefully you won't need them. The old black grease that can be seen doesn't look too good, so the springs may have to be removed anyway. You need to take great care working on a gram motor, if you don't know, then ask - it looks like Barry has it mostly covered so far.

6th Sep 2019, 4:45 pm	#18
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi there Thanks for the update. Have taken a couple more pics. I bought the unit in this condition. Someone has obviously tried to repair the motor I think. One spring has a tear...!! The other one appears to engage in the spindle slot, and will turn, but I am not sure it will retain there? Pictures attempt to show that... So from your description am I to understand that there is a locking pin in the spindle groove? Nothing present in this motor or spring casement. How is power transferred? I see no connection between the cranked spring and the turntable spring? I am not sure if that is an apt description! When I broke open the spring casement (screws already had some blade damage to head, so was not very optimistic at what I would find) I just had two springs and a separating disc/washer. The two cogged spindles came out throught the centre hole with no tension or persuasion beforehand... they were not attached to anything... I think I need one new spring at least... Can you suggest a supplier? Off to US for 3 weeks working so will not he able to work on this for a while, but can get parts ordered etc... Are new, sealed spring units available? Would prefer to use original, but that may be an option. Again, I appreciate all the advice to date. Thanks Attached Thumbnails

6th Sep 2019, 5:57 pm	#19
Audio1950 Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Whittlesey, near Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK. Posts: 3,761	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone The clip I'm referring to can be seen on the third picture of the first four. It's in the depression on the bottom plate, and slides into the groove on the spindle that goes through the springs. Other than that, I can't understand what "vertical piece" you are referring to that could be a locking bar. The two cogged spindles are not attached to anything other than the centre coils of the springs. If you look at the large cog on the springs, look at what they turn, and then what that turns, you'll see how power is transferred to the turntable. What do you mean by the "cranked" spring? The only other spring other than the two mainsprings is the one wrapped around the winding handle shaft, which, if you're using American terminology, could be called a "crank spring". Barry

7th Sep 2019, 8:11 am	#20
GOKenyon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Strathaven, South Lanarkshire, UK. Posts: 16	Re: Hines Table Grand Gramophone Hi Barry Thanks for your patience... I think I get it... The 1st picture of the last set shows a "tear/split" 1cm to the right of the pliers... heavy in old grease presently. It goes 2/3rds of the way through the spring. I will attempt to clean it, squeeze the shape to engage properly in the spindle groove. But it may be a replacement is required. Again, any supplier would be useful to know. I will look at the locking mechanism you refer to. Can you refer to the title of the pic you refer to? Date/time it was taken? Want to make sure I fully understand the pic you refer to. Currently at Glasgow airport about to leave for SFO. So will be unable to pursue project for a month... I will open up the sound box on return. Have yet to examine this. Again, it is likely that this will need parts as you guys expect. So a supplier name would be a useful asset. The brake mechanism shows corrosion and has springs. It is a little seized up currently, but has a leather plug in it... Not sure of this functionality but will help to work this out when I can get the motor back up and running. Thanks again for all the support and advice received. Appreciate this greatly... Gareth