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1st Apr 2018, 3:01 pm | #1 |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 2,580
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PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Hi.
From my days at technical college, I remember how effortless it was using a guillotine to cut PCB laminates including the FR4 types. I've always wanted one but due to their prohibitive price tag I've resorted to scoring the board both sides and snapping it. A dress with a file usually yields good results. I shy away from using a saw due the harmful dust. My question is, has anyone gone down the road of building a decent guillotine? They're not particularly complicated engineering wise though the blade arrangement would need to be decent quality HSS or HCS with the correct heat treatment for durability. It would make a good project if successful and a massive saving on buying a readily available unit. Regards Symon. |
1st Apr 2018, 4:02 pm | #2 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 3,077
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I'd be very interested in this as well. By coincidence I've just cut a load of random PCB boards with the guillotine at work. See below.
These get used for all sorts of hasty projects and a guillotine makes this a breeze. Start with an A4 sized PCB and chop, chop, chop away to get lots of little boards. A decent guillotine has been on my shopping list for quite a while now. I want one before I retire and the one at work is now padlocked in case anyone passing by falls against it and chops a finger off. So I only get access to it by appointment these days. A real hassle. I've seen a few used ones on ebay but they always look tired and they are overpriced.
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1st Apr 2018, 4:13 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 3,077
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I'm hopeless at mechanical stuff but I can offer some advice and that is to make it quite sturdy. Don't scrimp on the basic structure. Our previous PCB guillotine at work was a smaller and lighter one and it wasn't as nice to use. Also, it had various running repairs done to it over the years due to stress fractures/failures of some of the moving parts.
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1st Apr 2018, 4:36 pm | #4 |
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I use my small milling machine fitted with a tungsten carbide bit, works a treat and you can use it for lots of other things as well. It is a Chinese one http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalo...EG-SX1L-Mill-2 very good it is too.
I fitted mine with digital readouts, great for drilling front panels accurately. |
1st Apr 2018, 8:06 pm | #5 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
Posts: 8,195
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Hi Gents, I bought a Chinese 12" machine that was a guillotine, bender and slip roll some time ago.
The Machine as shipped was fine, but needed setting up correctly and has given good service. I think it was bought through the advertisers in "Model Engineers Workshop" Ed |
2nd Apr 2018, 1:54 am | #6 |
Nonode
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tintinara, South Australia, Australia
Posts: 2,343
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I've used a paper guillotine successfully before getting a proper one.
You do need to make sure you have a good grip of the pcb material though when cutting (I removed the "paper holder" bit that was parallel to the blade as it got in the way). |
2nd Apr 2018, 3:25 am | #7 | |
No Longer a Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Maroochydore, Queensland, Australia.
Posts: 2,679
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Quote:
They are complicated to the extent that they require very solid precision machined blades, mechanical parts etc to be of any practical use. In fact if you went to machine one up yourself from raw materials, if it were to be of any practical use, it would probably cost 1000's of dollars and many hours. This is why most hobbyists (at least here in AU) use pre-made small guillotines like this, which are amazing value. Since not only will they cut pcb, metals, they have an integral metal bending function, all for less than $400. Anyone who gets one soon realizes that they pay for themselves 100's of time over in the time they save and the high quality results of cutting metals and pcb's. And as noted, for this kind of money I'd say its impossible to make anything like this for anywhere near the price unless you owned the machine shop yourself and had all the materials on hand and a lot of time up your sleeve: https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/S648 |
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2nd Apr 2018, 4:21 am | #8 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,903
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Notice that the whole machine costs $aus350 but just a pair of guillotine blades cost $aus200. This shows you where a fair amount of the work goes.
I did a serious engineering training course, and one of the things it taught me is that you CAN make all sorts of tools yourself with a bench, vice, drill-press, straight-edge, engineer's square and a lot of files*. The second thing it taught me was how much time it took! So I have things like toolmaker's clamps, a vice, pairs of pliers and things like that which I made myself. If I had to make (or even just re-sharpen) guillotine blades, though I could do it the hard way, I think I'd go looking for a nice surface grinder... by Jones and Shipman for preference. It would never be a cheap guillotine. * and a large tin of plasters. David
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2nd Apr 2018, 7:02 am | #9 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St.Ippolyts, Hitchin, Hertfordshire QRA IO91UW
Posts: 3,518
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
If you have the space, you can often pick up an Edwards treadle guillotine (meant for sheet metal work) I think the smallest ones are 3ft though.
Expect to pay between £100 and £250 - even if the blades are past their best, a good service and clean will be more than ample for cutting PCBs and Aluminium sheet. Making one, an interesting project for sure, but a lot of work and quite fine limit engineering in order to have any degree of accuracy - look at a decent pair of scissors, see where the two blades cross - this shear point is critical for good cutting - sharp square faces just make for tidy clean edges.
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2nd Apr 2018, 7:26 am | #10 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tintinara, South Australia, Australia
Posts: 2,343
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Quote:
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2nd Apr 2018, 9:59 am | #11 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 5,768
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
In answer to the question, no I haven't tried to build one as it would be an inordinate amount of effort and expense to perform a simple task, which even the most enthusiastic amongst us would perform maybe no more than once or twice a month, and which is easily and quickly accomplished by other means.
For many years I just clamped the sheet on my workbench with the cutting line overhanging the edge of the bench and used a full sized hacksaw, then took the burr off with a file. However, in recent years I've used a small electric tile saw which uses a diamond cutting blade immersed in water bath when cutting tiles, but I used it dry for cutting PCBs. The model that I have - bought at a car boot sale for a fiver - is a 'Plasplugs Compact Floor & Wall Tile Cutter'. They often appear on ebay for a few pounds, but the current 'Plasplugs XL 110' tile cutter with 110mm diamond blade, can be bought from B&Q for £40, or £35.00 on Weds for those of us with an old fogey discount 'diamond card': https://www.diy.com/departments/plas.../653270_BQ.prd Bearing in mind that these tile cutters are designed to cut all types of wall & floor tiles; quarry tiles, terracotta, slate, marble, porcelain, granite & limestone up to 22mm thick, they make very short work of cutting PCB laminate - just a few seconds per cut. There's the added bonus that the cutter can be used for its intended purpose - to tile the kitchen or bathroom if so inclined! As a project in its own right, designing and building a guillotine and sourcing the materials would be an interesting light engineering challenge, but that's quite another thing and quite another hobby. It seems to me that the 'opportunity cost' would be that it would leave little time for making PCBs, so it would tend to be rather self-defeating. Just my take on things.
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2nd Apr 2018, 1:01 pm | #12 |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 2,580
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Hi
It seems the general concensus is that it's not really practical to build one. The main reason for raising the question was due to the very high cost of commercially available guillotines. I realise now the precision required for a decent quality unit hence the high cost. The combined unit that Hugo mentions looks nice and is well worth considering. Terry's suggestion of a paper guillotine sounds good, certainly worth trying. I like the suggestion by David of using a wet wheel tile cutter and the price looks good too. I've now got a few options to consider. Thanks again for all your input Regards Symon |
2nd Apr 2018, 3:20 pm | #13 |
Tetrode
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: East Lothian, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 66
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Symon, not forgetting the heat treatment and finishing required for the shear edges of the blades. You did get a good few alternatives suggested, though!
regards David |
2nd Apr 2018, 3:33 pm | #14 |
Octode
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,795
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
David G4EBT. What a brilliant solution...... A few years back I bought a small modelling circular saw for Plastic sheet etc, but the blade was never good enough for FR4 or even paper phenolic board as it was the copper that killed the blade. Thus I have been using a "sheet" hacksaw since.
I Like the solution you have stated. Lets see what ebay has to offer
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Should get out more. Regards Wendy G8BZY |
2nd Apr 2018, 4:03 pm | #15 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 5,768
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
They're often on eBay - one went for £6.50 today, another one has one bid of £5.00 with a few days to go, but even a new one isn't too expensive.
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David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339. |
2nd Apr 2018, 5:13 pm | #16 |
Heptode
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Scarborough, North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 510
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
With the water tank cover missing mine cost £1.50 at last years car boot sale, so have a look there and no postage.Ted
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2nd Apr 2018, 7:05 pm | #17 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Stafford, Staffs. UK.
Posts: 2,532
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
Interesting thread, given I have such a plasplugs tile cutter in the loft and would never have thought of that use. A couple of things spring to mind:
1. Make sure you wear some sort of dust protection, glass dust is never going to be good for you. 2. Guillotines will be great for bare board but resist the temptation to use one for cutting a populated board. The strain breaks SMT components, MLCCs being particularly problematic because the failure doesn't show immediately and is pretty spectacular in some circumstances. |
2nd Apr 2018, 7:06 pm | #18 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 3,077
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
For reference, the guillotine in the video below looks like the one we use at work. I think ours is the 18" model as per the video. I think we paid about £600 (new) but this was a few years ago. I think the blades cost over £100 each.
It's also good for cutting plastic sheet or for making metal screens for PCBs. Ours is screwed down to make it more steady in use. On ebay they seem to fetch big prices even when tatty so I guess I'll be sat here waiting a bit longer for a bargain to pop up at a company liquidation auction somewhere. I'm in no hurry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXX3sz-gk50
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2nd Apr 2018, 11:26 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I've got a relatively lazy solution I use. I tend to work on breadboards in approx 1 inch strips. These I score and snap out of a large sheet. I then cut chunks off with aviation shears to order.
If you wet sand the edge with fine grit wet and dry paper, no dust! |
3rd Apr 2018, 12:58 am | #20 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,935
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Re: PCB Guillotine - Has anyone tried to build one?
I've been using an old paper-cutting guillotine that I bought for £10. I'd guess it was made in the 1950's, beautifully varnished wooden base that would support an elephant and a blade which must be around 10 x 40mm in section. Definitely lacking in H&S features, but that can be fixed. Looking on eBay just now, I spotted a good number that looked similar, mostly selling for about the same price, but their weight means that they have to be close enough to collect in person.
B
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