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Old 9th Feb 2019, 3:26 pm   #1
Harry Hogwash
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Default 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Our hard wired oven is 1960s and the socket is funny round pin Bakelite switches.
The other day the Cooker Wall On Off switch just cleanly sheared off! In the down or On position!
Fortunately the actual cooker has independent knobs but one or two of these are playing up.
It doesn't look like the switch can be reset even with a screwdriver.
Are replacement Bakelite switches for these consumer units still available?
Otherwise the cooker will have to be disconnected and the consumer unit upgraded.

Complications are:
There is no interruption of supply fitted to the mains.
It's a question of trial and error with 1950's fuses.
Electricians have mentioned this a number of times and are pushing for an unwanted whole rewire.

So question how to move the stiff stump end of a flat broken Bakelite switch
up and down every night?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 4:34 pm   #2
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

I'm a bit confused here. You mention a socket with round pins, so presumably there's a plug too ? If so then that arrangement is not 'hard wired'.

A consumer unit usually means a wall-mounted case containing a number of isolators and protective devices. Long, long ago these would have been wire fuses, the carriers for which could be pulled in and out. More recently they've become resettable circuit breakers which look like switches. New circuit breakers are, in general, still available but whether the particular ones needed for any given kind of old consumer unit are is more doubtful.

Many cookers were fed via a simple switch on the kitchen wall. A supply was run to this from the house's consumer unit and the cooker was then wired into the switch. Is it a switch like this that's broken ? If it is, and if it's old, then it's very unlikely that spare parts for the internals are still being made. If you were very lucky you might come across a second-hand one somewhere, which you could cannibalise. But to be honest if the one on your wall has reached the end of its life then I wouldn't trust an equally old second-hand one to last much longer.

The bottom line, I'm afraid, is that this is mains electrical wiring. Bodging a repair is almost always a terribly bad idea. People die in house fires caused by defective electrical gear and if the Bakelite in your switch is disintegrating then the whole thing needs to be replaced. This needs to be done by someone competent (read up on Part P of the Building Regulations, which have the force of law) and I'm afraid if you have to ask questions on here about it then you almost certainly aren't up the standard of 'competent' (don't take that personally, most people aren't).

Cheers,

GJ
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Last edited by GrimJosef; 9th Feb 2019 at 4:40 pm.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 7:24 pm   #3
Harry Hogwash
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Thank You for your reply.
Yes you obviously understand the situation yes it is
the switch on the wired in box.
Adjacent is a another round 3 pinner marked socket with
a 3 pin plugged cable.
Also Bakerlite.
Good advice here.
Problem is we dont want to lose the cooker.
Oh it might have one or two minor faults like
lights not coming on or loose electric rings bit its a classic.
Though Vintage with eye level grill 2 ovens and a rotissierie that we never use!
Theres NO HEAT coming from any of the appurtances with all knobs set to zero.
I can hear 'mild arking'inside the top.
It seems to work as normally it would if just switched on.
Will try to get an elecrician to come out.disconnect it,electrical safety test it,
replace the consumer unit and reconnect it.
If he refuses saying its not safe to use the cooker itself'
then nothing for it but to ditch it.
One rather greasy top end 1960s cooker anyone?
Spares or Repairs.
PS Ive installed an extra smoke alarm in the kitchen just in case.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 7:36 pm   #4
The Philpott
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

In many cases back in the sixties/seventies, the cooker main switches were installed too close to the cooker to be acceptable in a 21st century installation anyway, so the best thing when disturbing such an old set-up is to do it once, and do it properly-even if it does involve messing up nice old wall tiles. If an old bakelite switch has broken up in this way it might mean it has soaked up moisture, oil fumes from cooking etc over the years so is effectively beyond further use.

Round pin sockets MAY indicate that you have older spec rubber insulated wiring in your walls, and if this is so it really needs to be ripped out and replaced with modern spec PVC.

This is a small scale minefield, i'm afraid.

You can post a few photos on here if you wish- things become a lot clearer then.

Dave
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 7:57 pm   #5
factory
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Sounds like one of those combined cooker switches boxes that also have a socket as well, from the description it sounds like the toggle has broken off.

I'm not sure why you think an electrician will only do a complete rewire, one of my relatives has had a new consumer unit installed next to an older one, I can't remember the exact reason it was added for (it may have been for the stairlift).

Yes old electrics can overheat & fail or cause fires (and so can new stuff too), I have an old overheated fuse as a paperweight from a ceramic MEM 15A isolator fuse box (the front was Bakelite) it looked to have failed due to loose connections, the ceramic back of the fusebox had got so hot it cracked too & charred the wood behind it.

Obviously you need to have this sorted out by someone qualified to do it.

David
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 8:04 pm   #6
Lancs Lad
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Please post a picture. It would make things a bit clearer.

We like pictures

And why can you not just turn off the whole supply to your house at the main switch?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 8:33 pm   #7
factory
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hogwash View Post
Problem is we dont want to lose the cooker.
Oh it might have one or two minor faults like
lights not coming on or loose electric rings bit its a classic.
Though Vintage with eye level grill 2 ovens and a rotissierie that we never use!
Theres NO HEAT coming from any of the appurtances with all knobs set to zero.
I can hear 'mild arking'inside the top.
It seems to work as normally it would if just switched on.
Will try to get an elecrician to come out.disconnect it,electrical safety test it,
replace the consumer unit and reconnect it.
If he refuses saying its not safe to use the cooker itself'
then nothing for it but to ditch it.
Sounds like it was a nice cooker in its day, but it also sounds like it's now in rather poor condition, arcing and loose electrical parts are not good.
Some pictures would be nice.

I imagine earth leakage could cause it trip the breaker in a new consumer unit. Is there anyone out there that restores vintage cookers? I think new one would be the better idea.

Hope you can find a decent electrician, not one of those ones that has been on a one day slide-show course (as mentioned by BigClive on youtube recently).

David
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 1:51 am   #8
dave walsh
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

It's unfortunate that you have called yourself "Hogwash" Harry and you are not really answering any questions, except when you believe that a responder thinks you are right to carry on with a potentially dangerous arrangement. I may be wrong but I don't think that anyone would want to take on the responsibility for your life. It's just a cooker at the end of the day.

Dave
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 7:07 am   #9
Ed_Dinning
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Hi Gents, this sounds like a cooker control unit. These have an isolation switch for the cooker as well as a socket for a kettle or similar.
Early units like yours normally had a 15A round pin socket, modern units have a 13A outlet.

IF everything else is OK it should be possible for a suitably qualified person to exchange the old style for a modern unit.
Note however that no work can be carried out in the kitchen area unless the person is Part P qualified.

Ed
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 9:50 am   #10
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Dinning View Post
IF everything else is OK it should be possible for a suitably qualified person to exchange the old style for a modern unit.
Quite. I am not sure where the consumer unit comes into this problem as it is at the other end of the cooker feed. All it needs is the cooker switch replacing, unless it then exposes evidence that the whole house wiring is dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Dinning View Post
Note however that no work can be carried out in the kitchen area unless the person is Part P qualified.
Part P qualified OR OTHER COMPETENT PERSON. I know the cartel tries to deny it, but that is what the ' rule book' says.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 10:17 am   #11
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

I hate to say it, but if your house electrics are that old, then bargain on at least some rewiring work being needed. Ask a local sparks to have a look and give you an idea of what is needed, until you know, we are just guessing. Until then, it might be take aways
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 10:37 am   #12
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Wrong time of year for BBQs too, bad timing.
Move?
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 2:08 pm   #13
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Another possible cause for this type of bakelite switch to snap off is progressive arcing, pitting and sooting of the contacts over the decades, resulting in the operator slamming or bashing them towards ON to make a decent contact. (Bad practice, needless to say)
Dave
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 2:16 pm   #14
barrymagrec
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

I'd suggest this cooker switch / socket was fifties at the latest - my parents old house had a 13amp socket on the cooker switch and that was built in 1955 - overdue for replacement.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 3:23 pm   #15
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

I've got one in my kitchen dating from the mid to late 1960s, but it has a square pin 13 amp socket rather than the round pin 15 amp one in question here. The important thing with regards to my cooker box is that the wiring to it is in the standard grey PVC, whereas the wiring to the cooker switch plus 15 amp socket box in question here could well be fed by old black rubber covered cable, or even lead. The only problem with replacement of the box is going to be the condition of the cable behind it. If all the insulation falls to bits as soon as it's disturbed there's going to be a problem and the cable may need to be replaced back to the fuse box/consumer unit. It could be that the person doesn't have the funds available for a complete rewire of the whole house, but could possibly afford to replace just the cable to the cooker box.

I can't see what the problem is as regards temporarily isolating the unit when going out, or last thing at night, by pulling the appropriate fuse out in the fuse box/consumer unit. A sensible person should easily be able to identify the correct fuse to 'pull', by the size of the cable going to it - it'll likely be visibly thicker than all the others going to fuses. If it can't be seen or easily identified in this way, then just pull fuses until the correct one is identified, then label it. At the worst you'll have to re-set clocks etc. around the house if you pull wrong fuses before identifying the correct one - as I always say, no need to make hard work of an easy job!
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 3:40 pm   #16
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Your first post suggests that you have had one or more Electricians to look at this, and presumably they wouldn't do the required remedial work without a full rewire. Professionals have a lot to lose if a bodge turns into a disaster. I'm guessing that you have an old 4 way fuse box, and you can't isolate the cooker control box from the downstairs power, or worse still, all the power?
TBH, we're all guessing as you are unsure about the relevant terminology. To get anywhere we need photographs of both the cooker wall switch, and your fuse box and main switch.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 3:53 pm   #17
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

Yes, I think we all enjoy pictures of old antiquated electrical systems.

It's true that there may well not be an actual consumer unit, that's why I said 'fuse box/consumer unit'. There could well be one of those iron clad units with a big lever on the side with porcelain fuses and holders within. It's possible that the cooker circuit is wired in with another circuit and this may be what the OP is hinting at in his post in saying that there's a problem isolating it 'only' as a temporary safety measure.
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Old 10th Feb 2019, 8:18 pm   #18
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

If the cable will withstand the switch being replaced, I don't see that swapping with a new switch would trigger a complete rewire subject to basic fusing, polarity, insulation and earthing being okay.

Old cooker switches may be obtainable on Ebay etc.

An old cooker arcing is possibly due to dirt or broken insulators and this must be looked at.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 12:46 pm   #19
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

If the handle of the switch has broken-off in the ON position, then the cooker should still work. Is that so?
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 1:36 pm   #20
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Default Re: 1960s Bakelite Wired in Cooker Switch has sheared off in 'On'!

As far as I can gather the cooker is working, albeit with some faults. I think that due to the cooker being slightly, shall we say dodgy, the OP wanted to be able to switch off/isolate it during the night for safety reasons.

I think it's very unlikely that the starter of this thread will ever return to the forum as it seems that a forum member frustrated with the safety aspects of the situation being discussed, unfortunately made a very unpleasant and rude comment directly to the poster in the early hours of the the other morning in a post that has now thankfully been deleted by moderators.
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