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Old 21st Mar 2010, 2:58 pm   #41
brenellic2000
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

I like the idea of stethoscopes - with stereo, you'll be able to find their exact position so you can shoot the ******* with a 12 bore!!

There is no gaurantee they will be chemicaly killed, but while the active larvae will die first from a soaking, the eggs may survive and remain dormant... Those chemicals which are 'guaranteed' to work cannot be sold over the counter due to their toxicity, lest little Johnnie takes a swig to wash down his Mephadrone - but it is possible to fumigate in a closed chamber (that also applies to little Johnnie!)

We used to use high-pressure treatment (250psi Bethell full-cell process) with a very high quality Solignum preservative which, in theory, gives perishable timbers a 25 year life against insect and fungal decay - but they still get attacked and decay at a slower rate - and woodpeckers still dig out larvae without ill effect! Pressure treated creosote however is virtually guaranteed 100 years life span! but the EU, bless 'em, will only licence approved users and then subject them to costly H&S, COSHH etc etc regulations - arrggghh!

Barry
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Old 21st Mar 2010, 6:19 pm   #42
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Telegraph poles are all engraved with the date they were 'made' and it can be interesting to read off some of the dates. 1930's and 40's are common in this area and when they are replaced and examined, the bit that's been in the earth is like it was planted yesterday. Not sure but I was told that they were soaked for five years in a creosote bath before being put into service. I have never seen any form of insect attack on telegraph or power poles. I built a pole barn five years ago from phone poles that were as old as me! First class timber. The engraving on this one says GPO. 32ft. M [medium load] 49 [1949] Now you will be looking at all the poles to see how old they are...Seems to be the only cure for the little horrors, or burning. Oh! and I love the smell of Creosote. Regards, John.
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 1:06 pm   #43
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

All telegraph poles, railway sleepers and sea-side groynes are pressure impregnated using the Bethell full cell process. A vacuum is drawn to evacuate the cells of sap, when the vacuum is released, creosote is the drawn into the outer, emptied cells. A known volume of creoste per cu.ft of timber is then introduced and forced into the timber - through the axial sap channels at around 250psi - or more. A vacuum then draws off the surplus creosote leaving a dryish pole. It does not quarantee 100% treatment. Tanalised vacuum treatment only draws a vacuum.

It is impossible to soak or brush any liquid into the timber along the grain when dry - you can prove this by soaking a piece of 12" x 4" x 2" over a week - or year, immersed in a bucket of treatment. If you cut the treated wood across the centre, only the ends with their exposed sap channels will have absored any creosote - treatment on the outer faces will quite literally only be 'skin deep'- barely 1/16" in many hardwoods.

So, if ever you buy a piece of pre-treated timber, YOU MUST always retreat any cut surfaces, especially end grain. Hence soaking a cross cut telephone pole is correct as the centre will be untreated. It only possible to 100% treat some soft woods, the heartwood of oak, chestnut and many others are impossible to treat even under very high pressure.

Many telegraph poles and groynes are now CCA treated; the water borne copper chrome arsenate salts remain in the timber once dried and can have a very long life. CCA is horiculturally safe... but creosote keeps the hungry vegetarian rabbits at bay!!

Re: creosoting fences and sheds. The only treatment needed is to the timber in the ground and up to 6" above ground in the constant wet-dry-wet region. You are wasting your money creosoting the rest of it! That is where timber treatment companies make their money!

And NO, used engine oil is not a good subsitute - it contains acids which break up and soften the cellouse structure of the timber.

Barry
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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 2:14 pm   #44
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Cutting up some tantalised timber yesterday I was aware that the cut ends were obviously untreated ,i did notice that the stuff had penetrated some areas deeper than otheres from the sides , but generally it isnt much .
I would slightly disagree that coating the whole of a structure with creosote isnt worthwhile as it does make a water resisting barrier to rain etc .I have observed this with some large gates at a place i sometimes work at. The water beads off the horizontals when it rains and the gates have no rot at all despite being at least 30 years old.
This does show though that flooding flat surfaces inside a radio is a token gesture , unless there are sufficient worm holes to take the fluid inside . In which case it can really suck it up!
Legs are always a problem to treat ,and they often have worm!
Regular inspection of an item thats been treated is recommended.
Storing stuff on mass without movement is asking for trouble ,and should be regularly inspected ..once a year mayb..Especially if its in unheated rooms .
Worse if stuff is wrapped up and piled together rather than in display format

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Old 22nd Mar 2010, 3:36 pm   #45
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

You are of course correct that horizontal surfaces which trap water need treatment, but you are better of with chamfering/inclining the surface to allow run-off and treating with 'Timbadura' or linseed oil. Creosote is not a water proofing agent although coal-tar creosote as opposed to 'distilled wood creosote' (light) has a higher bitumen/tar content.

'Soaking' a radio cabinet with woodworm killer is quite effective, but is still only skin deep on surfaces other than end grain.

Barry
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 1:30 pm   #46
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Telegraph poles are treated by a method known as ruping. They are totally immersed in a large closed container of creosote from which all the air is pumped out (yes I know that's impossible) which allows creosote to enter all the hollow spaces in the wood. The container is then pressurised to force more creosote in. I believe that wooden railway sleepers were similarly treated.

If you cut through a telegraph pole or railway sleeper you will find that the creosote has penetrated some distance into the wood. Contrast this with a piece of wood which has been brushed with or immersed in cresote where the creosote will have penetrated much less.

I still treat fence posts and panels with a mixture of sump oil and creosote, as that's traditional. Quite honestly though modern products do a better job above ground and the water can be seen running off. Just make sure there are no flat horizontal surfaces where the water can accumulate.
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 3:00 pm   #47
brenellic2000
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Rueping is a very basic version of the traditional, and far superior, Bethell full cell process used for sleepers, telegraph poles etc. They doubtless use this lesser process today for cheapness!

Any exposed timber with its grain running vertically above ground will not absorb rain water for very long, but will absorb some oxidising preserative if applied by brush or spray, but not beyond its first rows of outer cells unless these are artificially damaged. Further penetration needs osmosis between the cells, radially, by steeping when semi-green or vacuum/pressure/vacuum cycles, such as the Bethell process, along the living sap carrying vessels in hardwoods and all vessels in most softwoods. The BS standard is by volume not by degree of penetration - which is impossible to determine unless by destruction testing!

Steeping by the hot/cold method to evacuate the end grain cells and allow absorbtion by 'vacuum' on cooling, is a more usefully durable, albeit temporary method.

Many modern 'fencing browns' are white spirit carriers with insecticides/fungicides and a water-repellant agent. Most are nothing more that water repellant architectural finishes. Creosote - by which I mean don't mean modern 'creosote substitute' - and CCAs or Zinc compounds guarantee well in excess of 25 years ground contact (ie: wet/dry enivironment) which outlasts the best naturally non-perishable UK timbers - oak and yew. Very few modern domestic or DIY-trade 'fencing browns' and architectural finishes get near that standard due to elf 'n safety, COSHH etc.

I have a Bethell full cell pressure treatment plant here if anyone wants one to play with! It weighs 3 tons - empty!

Barry
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 3:33 pm   #48
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brenellic2000 View Post
I have a Bethell full cell pressure treatment plant here if anyone wants one to play with! It weighs 3 tons - empty!

Barry
How much does it cost to fill it up and run it?
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 12:07 pm   #49
brenellic2000
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

... at last estimate over £1,000! - about 150 gallons. Its a Pratchett organic solvent system, not suitable for water-borne salts.

Barry
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 1:45 pm   #50
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

I have found the ultimate remedy:

http://www.rentokil.co.uk/pest-guide...tle/index.html


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