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Old 30th Jul 2018, 2:45 pm   #1
John10b
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Default Veneer specification

Decided to re-veneer Bush AC34, the other Bush i simply used Danish Oil, but this one is in a very poor state with large chips.
This will be my first attempt at veenering and I have a couple of questions, I would like to ask.
I have read with interest some of the posts about veenering but I still have a few queries.
1. Why Paper backed Veneer, do you always bye Paper Backed or not?
2. Are some sheets of veneer made up of small pieces do I have to avoid these?
3. Some suppliers specify “flexible” veneer ! What is this?
4. What thickness is typically recommended?
5. Can you recommend a supplier( one stop shop) for veneer, titebond, and glue roller?
Many thanks
John
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 4:30 pm   #2
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Hi John - I'm just a beginner on the veneer front as well, but I can suggest the following couple of possible suppliers:

For the veneer job I finished recently, I sourced the Titebond adhesive from https://www.axminster.co.uk/titebond...eneer-ax836045, and the veneer from an eBay seller.

Steveherz recommended this one to me - http://www.thewoodveneerhub.co.uk/wo...ative-veneers/. Although in the end I didn't use them, they do seem to be more of a one-stop shop for veneering.

I had a quick look online, and from what I could see, the most difficult part of the AC34 is probably the curved top front edge... so I think it may be wise to post some detailed pics of your AC34, and solicit some expert views re. how to approach the veneering, e.g., when to veneer which surface, finish which edge, etc.. It pays to have everything well planned in advance. Personally, I'd probably approach the flat panels first, just to get the hands-on feel for the veneer & glue before tackling the curve.

ps - I assume you've already found this one - https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=67880

Alan
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 7:02 pm   #3
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Thank you Alan for the information and links, which I had not read, they will prove most informative.
Oh dear what have I taken on!! I think I need to give this some careful thought.
To date I have just removed the old veneer, 80% came off ok, the other bit required some effort.
I will do some more reading and decide my next step, this for me is a long term project and I’m in no hurry.
Any thoughts on some of the questions I asked?
For some reason I can’t upload pictures onto this forum, I’m using my iPad and it doesn’t like it!
Cheers
John
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 8:52 pm   #4
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Veneer specification

As has been said, the main challenge will be getting the veneer to bend on the top front edge.

It's a tight radius, and you'd be bending the veneer against the long grain, risking cracking and splintering of the veneer. I don't think there's much chance of getting the veneer to bend to such a tight radius without soaking it through and using an electric iron to generate steam, soften the fibres and make them pliable. I think a pro would use hide glue and a veneer hammer to firstly secure the veneer to the front of the cabinet, (cut to fit snugly to the speaker/dial aperture), then would soak the veneer at the point of the bend and use and electric iron to iron the veneer over the curve, generating steam to soften the fibres, then using hide glue again, to secure the veneer to the top of the cabinet.

Given that the cabinet is 19.75" long, (15.5" high x 8.5" deep), whatever veneer you use, it will most likely need to be two 'bookmatched' pieces to cover the full width, joined in the centre. You might find that's how the original veneering was done. The end panels pose little challenge, and would need to be done first, so that the front/top veneer overlaps the end veneer and the joint is unobtrusive.

There are countless video on youtube, some better than others, so it would be worth checking out a few of them. Maybe practice on bending some veneer by wetting, and using a steam iron through a cloth to see if you can get the veneer to take and hold a bend without splintering.

To remove old veneer, it's worth trying an old electric iron because a lot of cabinetry back in the 40s and 50s used hide glue, which melts readily with heat from an iron.

I hope that none of this sounds too discouraging, and wish you well in your endeavours John. Really, nothing is at stake beyond the expense of maybe some wasted veneer until you discover what works best for you.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 8:08 am   #5
John10b
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Thank you David for your advice, I will certainly view some videos and bye some veneer to use as practice as you suggested before I even attempt to veneer the Radio Cabinet. There is certainly a lot to learn.
Perhaps in hindsight I should have given it more thought and “repaired” the old veneer!
Cheers
John
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 8:17 am   #6
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Default Re: Veneer specification

I should have asked about buying “flexible “ veneer, which I saw on one suppliers web page. What is this, is it real veneer?
Cheers
John
Ps: any spelling mistakes caused by predictive text, that’s my excuse
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 8:46 am   #7
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
As has been said, the main challenge will be getting the veneer to bend on the top front edge.

It's a tight radius, and you'd be bending the veneer against the long grain, risking cracking and splintering of the veneer. I don't think there's much chance of getting the veneer to bend to such a tight radius without soaking it through and using an electric iron to generate steam, soften the fibres and make them pliable. I think a pro would use hide glue and a veneer hammer to firstly secure the veneer to the front of the cabinet, (cut to fit snugly to the speaker/dial aperture), then would soak the veneer at the point of the bend and use and electric iron to iron the veneer over the curve, generating steam to soften the fibres, then using hide glue again, to secure the veneer to the top of the cabinet.

Given that the cabinet is 19.75" long, (15.5" high x 8.5" deep), whatever veneer you use, it will most likely need to be two 'bookmatched' pieces to cover the full width, joined in the centre. You might find that's how the original veneering was done. The end panels pose little challenge, and would need to be done first, so that the front/top veneer overlaps the end veneer and the joint is unobtrusive.

There are countless video on youtube, some better than others, so it would be worth checking out a few of them. Maybe practice on bending some veneer by wetting, and using a steam iron through a cloth to see if you can get the veneer to take and hold a bend without splintering.

To remove old veneer, it's worth trying an old electric iron because a lot of cabinetry back in the 40s and 50s used hide glue, which melts readily with heat from an iron.

I hope that none of this sounds too discouraging, and wish you well in your endeavours John. Really, nothing is at stake beyond the expense of maybe some wasted veneer until you discover what works best for you.
I agree with all of that. I only ever use hide glue, water, an iron (I bought mine from Argos for fourteen quid) and a veneering hammer (made my own). But basically you start by wetting the veneer and using the iron to force water into the veneer fibres. Keep going until the veneer "gives up" and becomes a floppy and flexible sheet. Then more water and iron around the bend.

The big advantage is that if you botch up, you can take the veneer off by using water and an iron to remelt the hide glue - and just peel it off. If you use white woodworking glue, the only recovery is to sand the veneer off.

Craig

PS hide glue goes back to the Egyptians - it was used in furniture building thousands of years ago.

Last edited by Craig Sawyers; 31st Jul 2018 at 8:54 am.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 9:05 am   #8
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Veneer specification

This thread by Colin, ('Retired') extensively covers the re-veneering of a 'Barker 88' with a rounded front edge, not dissimilar to the Bush AC34. Colin chose to use 'book-matched' burr walnut, a particularly challenging veneer to apply. If sapelle is the docile 'Shetland pony' of veneers, burr walnut is an untamed mustang! It's a very well-illustrated thread, with lots of useful advice, and obstacles which were overcome along the way. Perhaps the most useful tip is to stay away from burr walnut veneer, which has a mind of its own.

To apply the veneer Colin used the technique of applying PVA glue to the cabinet and to the veneer, letting it dry, then ironing it on.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=93750

At the time, Colin was very much into veneering and French polishing, and I'd given (offloaded!) the set to him to have a stab at re-veneering the cabinet as it was beyond my wit or inclination to make a proper job of it. To quote Colin from the thread:

"David (David G4EBT) had very kindly given to me as a gift this Barker 88 it being a "woody". David had got the set working but he thought I might like to play around with the cabinet a bit as the cabinet was bland in appearance totally lacking character; the cabinet was in good condition but David had warned me the veneer to the top curve had rubbed through, and looking at the cabinet it really did look somber".

As will be seen from the pics at the thread, the end result certainly didn't look sombre!

Hope that's of interest and use.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 9:28 am   #9
Craig Sawyers
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Thanks for that link, David. That was a veneering tour de force by Colin! Burr veneers are non-trivial to apply - they are particularly badly behaved. And even if you soften them using water and iron, as soon as they start to dry they just take on the original buckled and crinkled form. Hats off to him for perservering - the result was stunning!

Craig
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 9:34 am   #10
John10b
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Thank you David, Craig and Alan for all your advice and links, which I certainly shall study.
Cheers
John
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 9:38 am   #11
John10b
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Default Re: Veneer specification

David one query you quoted “... he used PVA glue to ....fix veneer...”.
Did I misunderstand?
Cheers
John
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 1:39 pm   #12
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Quote:
Originally Posted by John10b View Post
David one query you quoted “... he used PVA glue to ....fix veneer...”.
Did I misunderstand?
Cheers
John
No - it's my mistake - I misquoted. Colin invariably uses hid glue, as I do, but I've only ever applied veneer to flat surfaces, which is no big deal. In post #8 at the thread, Colin alluded to the 'dry PVA technique' which I've never used and certainly back then neither had Collin.

Apologies for the confusion John.

To quote what Colin wrote at post #8:

" Many thanks also merlinmaxwell for your explanations as to how you lay your veneer using Araldite which is most interesting Are you aware that PVA adhesive can be used in exactly the same way as you use Araldite? The PVA is applied to both of the items to be veneered and the glue side of the veneer ensuring a decent coverage then the PVA is allowed to dry. Now the two parts can be brought together and bonded using a hot iron and roller or veneer hammer; I have been aware of this method for a while but recently a more detailed explanation was found and it is well worth knowing".

End quote.

The 'dry PVA' technique has the advantage of not requiring a glue pot and hotplate as would hide glue, but doesn't have the disadvantage of using PVA to try to apply veneer while the PVA glue is still wet. You apply PVA to the veneer and to the cabinet, then allow the glue to dry. Then, with the veneer positioned on the cabinet, you use an electric iron applied to the veneer, which melts the PVA on the cabinet and veneer, and use a veneer hammer (or roller of some sort) to press down the veneer and get rid of any air pockets.

There are videos on youtube I believe.

Incidentally, the term 'hammer' is rather misleading - 'squeegee' would be a better term. They're called 'hammer's for historical reasons - cabinet makers used the pein of a hammer to smooth down the veneer. You can but them, but they're simple enough to make from offcuts of wood and strips of brass. My 'MFJ' ones ('made from junk') are below.

Hope that clarifies any confusion.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 3:28 pm   #13
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Default Re: Veneer specification

This is mine. The brass strip is kind of hidden, but the two brass cross-pins that hold the strip firmly in place are visible. The handle is a hammer handle, wedged and glued in place. The head itself is hornbeam, wedge shaped - so quite thick at the top. That means that it is comfortable to put a hand there to apply pressure.

When actually veneering, the hammer lives in a bucket of warm water so that it doesn't chill the glue when in use.

Craig
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 5:25 pm   #14
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Default Re: Veneer specification

Thank you all for feedback. I’ve had a very educational afternoon, watching utube veneering videos, very informative and interesting.
I will certainly need to practice, a lot!
Cheers
John
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