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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 10:05 am   #21
Herald1360
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

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Originally Posted by Jon_G4MDC View Post
That is strange David_YVM, the balloon aeronauts have reserved Air Band frequencies - which can be interesting when one is in the vicinity.

One would have thought those guys fit in the same category. Else, if they are radio pirates, maybe their aero licence is the same?

David_G4EBT - long post. Thinking on it. It touches some veins..
I would expect that the air legal type approved radio equipment is much more expensive than 2m stuff. With little or no policing of radio signals that are not causing interference to commercial or government type users cost wise it's a no brainer. Commercial amateur gear may also be perceived as more reliable than CB too.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 10:43 am   #22
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I have a 2m rig in my office and very rarely hear anyone, having said that I have just had a QSO with a French station. I probably on average make one contact a day but I am at 500' ASL with a 7 element beam so can hear stations 50-100 miles away to the east.

In the '80s it was difficult to find a clear channel, now its difficult to find an occupied one.

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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 10:47 am   #23
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

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Originally Posted by GSBX1220 View Post
What is also noticeable is that the RT procedres used seem to me a bit casual. I listened to a couple of MM6 stations and no call signs given until end of the QSO and at the end of each over, there was no out, over or any handover given.

Maybe I'm just getting old!
When I was active, I always found the on air procedures really quite bizarre, with amateurs using speech, but employing terms and jargon applicable to CW transmissions. Typically: "Good morning old man, the name here is John, the QTH is Bristol, the WX is raining just now, but we could do with a drop of rain, hi hi! Can you just QRX while I take a call on the twisted pair. Actually, I think I'd better say 73 and see you further down the log - so this is G9BF in QSO with G4EBT going QRT till the next time".

It's nonsense.

I don't know if that's how radio amateurs still converse these days, but no one would ever talk like that on the phone or face to face. On CW, then fine, but to say 'hi' instead of laughing, or 'QTH' instead 'I'm in Bristol' or 'WX' instead of 'weather', or '73' instead of 'cheerio' isn't in my view 'correct operating procedures' it's just dated jargon that turns the hobby, (which is all it is - we're not air traffic controllers or whatever), into something that old buffers (ie, people like me - 80 next birthday), did before internet and smartphones came along.

It's wonderful that so many dedicated enthusiastic amateurs in clubs up and down the country run courses to encourage newcomers - especially young people - to come into the hobby. Anyone taking the foundation course next week could be on air in September with up to 10 Watts. This has been so for more than ten years and countless thousands have taken out an FL. So where are all these young people who could bring the bands alive? We know the answer - they're on Whats Ap Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Facetime whatever, often for hours every day and they're out and about - not hunched over a desk with a microphone in their hand twiddling knobs on a radio on 2 Metres or any other band.

These are societal changes and there's nothing anyone can do that hasn't been tried over and over again to breathe more life into the hobby. Last year our eldest granddaughter was in Cambodia, Vietnam and Thailand. We regularly kept in touch via FaceTime - the equivalent of a live audio visual QSO, so where does that put amateur radio?

Every good wish to those who do derive enjoyment from going on air. I'm not suggesting that I'm typical of other 'RHINOs' ('Radio Hams In Name Only') who've been licensed for decades but don't go on air any more. I was always more interested in construction than operating, just as I always enjoyed building model aircraft than flying them.

No doubt this will sound very negative and derisive, but it's just my take on why activity levels have fallen off a cliff over recent years. Bear in mind too that former 'B' licence-holders, which comprised half of the total at the time, originally confined the VHF/UHF bands, were granted HF access when the Morse test was scrapped, so can't be in two places at the same time.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 11:15 am   #24
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I think one of the issues is that youngsters arent encouraged to make anything anymore. Emphasis on 'anything'.

I recall my sons asking me for something years ago and they all chanted in unison "lets guess dad, no but we can build one". It took a few years of patience but now they spend all their downtime in the workshop building everything they use...planes, electronics, anything. At their primary school i was taken aside by their DT master who told me they were the only kids, the ONLY kids, he taught who knew how to even hold tools much less use them. Some kids didnt know which end of a screwdriver was the handle.

But if kids arent taught and encouraged at home they will lose the skills and desire to make stuff.

Radio is quite boring if all you do is talk into a mic. Home building and repairing is where the satisfaction has always been in amateur radio: cheque book licenced CB by any other name will always be dull. I think the loss of the cw test and the B licence caused almost criminal damage to amateur radio. Having to work hard for privilege isnt just not bad, it is positively good. We lost that.

D
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 12:53 pm   #25
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

Although there are some 2m repeaters around London there is little activity on them now.
Years ago you often had to wait for a gap to get on.
There is still some simplex 2m FM heard and my club has a 2m net every Sunday evening, although it gets far fewer calling in than their 160m net on Sunday mornings.
Also with two metres use I think the restrictions placed on Mobile telephone use in cars may have deterred some amateurs from operating mobile which is a reason the repeater network was set up.
The fun of amateur radio is the challenges. Trying different antennas, making antennas, finding ways to eliminate QRM, Morse to keep up, different modes to try-including now FT8, circuits to build.
Just using the internet or telephone is not the same enjoyment for me.

John
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 1:42 pm   #26
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

David G4EBT, regarding your comment about using Q codes and similar on voice, I have to disagree. Terms like QTH, QSO, QRT, 73 etc are understood by everybody in the hobby and in some cases say what you are talking about very clearly - what else would you call an amateur two way contact (including QSL confirmation)? Some are incredibly useful, ie a quick QRX if the phone goes or somebody knocks on the door, just a couple of seconds instead of a long sentence. Or when copy is bad, QRM, 73 gets the message across when he wouldn't copy the longer sentence. One thing we as amateurs become very good at is communicators, and this is incredibly useful if you are involved in Raenet or similar when you have to handle emergency traffic. Confusing to the man in the street maybe, but it gets the message through.

What we should not be doing is using morse telegraphese abbreviations like TU, CUL, GE etc, those are far better in English words. Even QRL?, itself often misused as it must always be used with a question mark, is pointless on voice as 'is the channel in use' is far clearer. And as for QRZ? when you haven't heard anybody calling is wrong.

But by and large we should use what is best under the circumstances. It is also worth mentioning that on-air cw QSOs are nowadays just down to what is necessary. No longer do you hear the CT and VA opening and closing things that we were all trained in the old days, you just send what is needed. Efficiency is what it is all about, though I agree some like old rag chews.

Maybe drifting a bit off topic for this forum...

73 Dave G3YMC
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 4:03 pm   #27
G4YVM David
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I must admit guilt... I love a cw ragchew but almost, nay invariably, nevrr use thr CT VA calls. Quite pointless really
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 5:37 pm   #28
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

The modern equivalent of the FT290 is of course the FT817, a compact VHF/UHF mutlimode with built in battery and a whip aerial. Similar size and power output and probably cheaper in real terms.

G7KNS
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 5:40 pm   #29
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

To my eternal shame I had to look up CT just now!!
As soon as I saw it -.-.- no problem at all. Hmm quite cross now.
Better get back on
...-.-
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 5:41 pm   #30
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

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The modern equivalent of the FT290 is of course the FT817

Doesn't the 817 also do HF as well? (But I take your point, it has the functionality of an FT290 and FT790 as a subset of its total capability. Maybe even the FT690 as well, if it covers 6 metres).
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 6:08 pm   #31
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

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Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
When I was active, I always found the on air procedures really quite bizarre, with amateurs using speech, but employing terms and jargon applicable to CW transmissions.
This has never bothered me at all, as I could see where the origin of it all was. I admit though that people saying 'Aitch Eye' instead of just actually laughing did confuse me, as a B licencee originally, until I did the morse exam.

Almost every sphere of radio communication has its jargon, most famously in the world of CB back in its heyday of course, but other users, like military aviators with their angels, bandits, bogeys and so on are just the same.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 6:20 pm   #32
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I think many of those who swelled the amateur numbers after 1945 brought their traditions with them. The naval and cable operators before that. It did create a jargon - always associated with those deeply inside a hobby.

Was it that bad to have to learn it to join? Not sure.

CB Jargon was the same but from a different root and in late 70s early 80s you knew which was which. Today the balance has changed.

I took the CW test to be able to get on 4m in the main. That was good and not long after that it came with all the rest of HF in the cornflakes packet. So it goes on in many other fields it seems. Attain the goal - goal moves.

It is tempting to resort to the jargon of most personal effort.
-.-. .--
I am lazy but I think it might have to be.

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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 6:43 pm   #33
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

By casual procedure I was not meaning people not using CW jargon, as that in a way is bizarre in speech mode, but has its roots back in the early days.

What I was getting at is for example, station A puts out a CQ call on S20, station B replies with "is that you Jimmy" station B replies and suggests moving to another channel / frequency they move, have a lengthy conversation and through that time I only know one stations call sign. Only at the end do I know the other.

No biggie really I suppose just one of those things, and I suppose with how quiet 2m is no one will ever take notice or exception. I'm not taking exception, just merely an observation. I have been away for more than 12 years so I suppose if I was active I would have not really noticed the changes as much.

Any activity is good at the end of the day. I know when I first started, I was pulled up by an older operator who said my overs were not long enough. According to him they should have been 1 min+ and if not, you were not contributing enough to the 'group'
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 6:48 pm   #34
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I suppose we also use the jargon we were formed by. It becomes comforting I guess. At the end of the day its all about enjoyment.

I get a little bit wound up by pointless jargon when its also wrong...someone recently told me.about their radio, a Yaesu FT1000MP. The person referred to it as a '1000 Mike Peter' Said persons CB roots shone brightly and I felt myself bristle.

Oh well.

D
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 6:56 pm   #35
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

I think I would have bristled too.
If you have any idea at all you know how to handle it.

Gx/2x/Mx or DXcall whatever from Gx/2x/Mx or DXcall whatever - is it that hard to get their callsign and your callsign in the right place?

It seems it is. So they omit them altogether.

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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 7:11 pm   #36
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

The bottom line is that everone's discussing here rather than on the air!
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 7:17 pm   #37
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Sorry gents, but if we insist on people speaking in a precise way on two metres and 'bristle' every time someone says something which suggests they were originally from another subculture, we will rapidly find ourselves (as radio amateurs) becoming Billy no-mates. Or maybe this has already happened?

In most other spheres of conversation including face to face, people instinctively adjust their conversational style within a few sentences to meet the other person half way. You can see this operating, for example, in the way teenagers talk to their parents one way and to their friends in a different way.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 7:43 pm   #38
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

In "Management Speak" that is called matching.
RF ATU's have impedance limits. I reckon people have too.

So.... and ...like...and mate...
I can find no Z match for them. Especially those on the BBC who use them.

As they say on some forums - maybe I should find my coat and be off.

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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 8:18 pm   #39
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

Just recently I have moved down to SW Cornwall from Milton Keynes, I’m pleasantly surprised at the amount of activity on 2M FM on GB3NC and also DX chasing on SSB/CW and data. During the last opening I worked a number of stations down in EA8 at around 2600kms and D44 was worked both from the U.K. and a new IARU R1 record from EI. Admittedly the level of activity is not the same as it was in the 70/80’s but there is good stuff going on.
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Old 22nd Aug 2018, 8:55 pm   #40
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Default Re: Users of 2 metre Amateur Band?

Good news indeed.
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