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Old 27th May 2018, 9:14 pm   #41
arjoll
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
Or if you’re a sneaky sod like me I get the guys who come round and do the stuff in the office to do it when they pass through for nothing
The other method is where you have a client who does PAT testing, and offer to sort out some PC problems while getting them to run through the stuff your kids need to have tested so they can use it at a University Hall of Residence
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Old 27th May 2018, 9:18 pm   #42
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
... Well worth the dosh to keep the vintage look ...
This should work fine for folks who are happy with a vintage 'look'. It could be that the OP's customer has put the radio in for repair rather than replacement because it really is vintage though. He may or may not be happy to get something 'lookalike' back.
GJ
All well and good, but laws careth not whether people are happy.

Some materials, like rubber insulation, degrade with time. Some materials haven't been made for such a long time that most examples around today wouldn't even have been considered safe back in the day in their current aged condition.

To borrow the vintage car analogy from above, a 40+ year old classic/vintage car may no longer need an MOT, but the driver is still responsible if he operates one in a non-roadworthy condition, or if a repairer performs an unsafe repair, or if a trader sells one in an unsafe condition. Some very early vehicles had brakes only on the rear. It would be pretty stupid to take one out into rush hour traffic. It has to be accepted that some old equipment, unless modified, is no longer suitable for use. Either operating conditions have changed, or no original materials remain in good enough condition for safe use.

Sometimes the very materials needed are illegal. Classic refrigerants, elephant tusks...

If Mr Customer wants to insist that a crumbling mains lead can't be replaced for loss of value reasons, then maybe he is treating his amplifier as a museum piece, and that's what its future should be; a display only item. It's his equipment, it's his choice. Just get him to sign something taking personal responsibility for any consequences of his decision.

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Old 27th May 2018, 9:24 pm   #43
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Legal implications I don't know, I bought it like that from the local boot market, you can't have the plug, I'm keeping it, take it or leave it.
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:04 pm   #44
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Since we're on the subject here's a scan of a 1984 document (Electricty Council) highlighting the old and then-new mains lead wiring colour codes.
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:32 pm   #45
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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As a sideways thought, I wonder how all the mains cable snippers handle stuff with readily available removable mains cables?
I imagine they just throw them away, which then leads (no pun intended) to people doing very stupid things like this if it's harder or expensive to find a replacement.

David
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:44 pm   #46
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Only an engineer would/could do that, he knew the "risk", its when the general public use bits of cardboard, matches, and sticky tape that it gets a bit dangerous, though there are no legal inplications for them.

We know what we are doing, are you one of us, or one of them. The best thing to do is not to let our toys in to the hands of the general public.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:09 pm   #47
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I saw that sig gen at the source and had a chuckle.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:13 pm   #48
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Sorry, but whoever did the post #45 bodge was a lazy fool, not an "engineer". I don't recognise the particular piece of gear but just the fact that it's vintage H-P suggests that it deserved to be owned by someone more appreciative. The mating "NEMA" moulded leads have long been known to be difficult to obtain in decent condition, and it's little effort to fit an IEC 14 inlet in the aperture.
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:02 am   #49
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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All well and good, but laws careth not whether people are happy.

Some materials, like rubber insulation, degrade with time ... If Mr Customer wants to insist that a crumbling mains lead can't be replaced for loss of value reasons, then maybe he is treating his amplifier as a museum piece, and that's what its future should be; a display only item. It's his equipment, it's his choice. Just get him to sign something taking personal responsibility for any consequences of his decision.
You're right about the law. It says that when sold, second-hand equipment must be 'safe' and new equipment must satisfy the current safety standards. That's it.

It doesn't define what 'safe' means though, presumably because it accepts that this very much depends on the circumstances and will need to be decided on a case-by-case basis. This why anyone who asks for clear instructions on what should and shouldn't be done and what is and isn't allowed is in fact asking for the moon on a stick. The only correct answer is "It depends".

I'm afraid that waivers signed by customers absolving us of responsibility may well be open to challenge if push should ever come to shove. Given that we were asked at the start of the thread to provide hard supporting evidence, here is what the government says is the position when it comes to the terms we can impose on our cutomers https://www.gov.uk/guidance/unfair-t...hings-go-wrong. Basically we can't get them to sign away their statutory rights, one of which is that goods be of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose and another of which is that services must be carried out with reasonable skill and care. Beyond that the details are strongly influenced by whether any shortcomings are the trader's fault or not. Deciding fault is what the courts do. So if there's a dispute then that's where we can expect to end up.

Cheers,

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Old 28th May 2018, 2:37 am   #50
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

If a customer still has obsolete (e.g.Wylex, still in use in some houses in Stockport, or Dorman Smith 13A down South) sockets, he is unlikely to be pleased by having his equipment returned fitted with a new BS1363 plug!

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Old 28th May 2018, 3:11 am   #51
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

As GJ says, the law can't define 'Safe' beforehand so it gets handled in court on a case by case basis. This is going to be very, very expensive for someone. We really don't want to wind up there.

If disclaimers are null and void, then how about written confirmation that the owner has been warned that the item is not safe for use?

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Old 28th May 2018, 7:04 am   #52
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Surely all that's required is a PAT 'fail' sticker (based on visual inspection - no need to test further), and to keep a record of its having been issued.
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Old 28th May 2018, 9:35 am   #53
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

That’s not a bad idea.
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Old 28th May 2018, 10:03 am   #54
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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As GJ says, the law can't define 'Safe' beforehand ... then how about written confirmation that the owner has been warned that the item is not safe ...
You can see the conflict here. A written confirmation that something 'is not safe' suggests that 'safe' can be defined. I would really hesitate to accept a repair job if I knew that I would be handing the item back in an 'unsafe' condition - i.e. if, in my judgement, there was significant risk of anyone coming to harm if the repaired equipment was to be used. So I'd never have to issue a 'the item is not safe' statement because I'd never take the job in the first place.

But I often work on equipment which doesn't meet modern safety standards. Leak valve amplifiers hardly ever have baseplates, for example, so all the live electronics are exposed to anyone careless enough to poke them. The Quad II amplifier is fitted with a 2-pin 5A mains connector so earthing needs taking care of. The early ones have unshrouded fuseholders, so with enough carelessness it's possible to touch live metalwork when extracting the fuse. The voltage selector has live metalwork accessible if a small child were to poke a metal pen into it. So is this amplifier safe ? In practice it is perfectly safe if it is fitted with a proper earth and used by an adult who can be trusted to disconnect the power at the wall socket before doing anything to it. More than 80,000 of these were sold and they didn't get a reputation for harming people. They're bought and sold all the time. My customer might well be upset if I were to slap an 'unsafe' notice on something that he was planning to sell, especially if I knew that it really was perfectly safe if used intelligently.

The long and the short is that there isn't an easy answer to this. Each case requires the use of judgement. I was encouraged to hear Hartley118's comments about the law's mature attitude towards vintage car owners. Perhaps that's the way forward.

Cheers,

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Old 28th May 2018, 10:48 am   #55
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

As an alternative to suggesting that perhaps modern but safe vintage flex being sold curtesy of the BVWS or VMARS, maybe vintage radio folk might consider arranging purchasing locally. Going by BVWS & VMARS membership lists, there always seems to be half a dozen folk within just a handful of miles of each other , in many areas of the UK.
This is the case also up here in the (considered remote ?) corner of the NE of Scotland. Several of us have been meeting regularly for coffee/natter sessions for the past few years. So to put my money where my mouth is, I'll consult with my chums at our next get-together with a view to purchasing a 50m or 100m roll of suitably acceptable & reasonably priced modern but vintage looking flex which meets all the safety criteria raised in this thread.
In general terms, I would say that "getting together for a vintage natter" is both enjoyably & electronically invigorating for like-minded folk.

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Old 28th May 2018, 1:15 pm   #56
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I've been following this thread with great interest, as it could affect anyone involved in vintage radio, audio and TV restoration - whether for personal/family use or for passing (or selling) on to others.

I've been repairing and restoring such items since my teens. However, my professional working life was concerned with failsafe, high integrity railway signalling systems, where equipment was carefully designed to have predictable failure mechanisms. I've also been involved with risk assessment and the associated risk mitigation measures (a related field), where risks are reduced so as to be "as low as reasonably practicable" (ALARP).

This has rubbed off into my hobby and I have compiled a check list of safety checks/tests that I go through whenever I work on such equipment. If the equipment is destined for use by others, I also include a "safety first" information sheet for end users. See: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=101998

In this way, I hope that I can anticipate any likely safety related issues and, should the need arise, demonstrate that I have done so. I know it's not foolproof, but it does show that a real effort has been made by me to ensure the safe operation of the equipment and that of the end user.
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Old 28th May 2018, 2:13 pm   #57
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Dave's checklists set the benchmark for us all to aspire to.
Yes, I appreciate that many Forum members & collectors/restorers don't have formal technical qualifications, but never the less contribute greatly to the vintage radio fraternity. To those guys I say that please don't think that Dave, or us other Dave/Davids, or other qualified folk, are in any way talking down to you or trying to impose seemingly unnecessary safety procedures. We just have your welfare at heart. Particularly now in this safety conscious & litigious 21st century.

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Old 28th May 2018, 2:24 pm   #58
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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To those guys I say that please don't think that Dave, or us other Dave/Davids, or other qualified folk, are in any way talking down to you or trying to impose seemingly unnecessary safety procedures. We just have your welfare at heart. Particularly now in this safety conscious & litigious 21st century. Regards, David
Absolutely!
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Old 28th May 2018, 3:46 pm   #59
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

The danger is that if something does go wrong and various organisations start revving up their lawyers, no-one can nip into their time machine to go back and do things differently.

I try to keep asking myself what could go wrong and how I would wish I'd handled it differently. But then the day job includes designing gear for linking aircraft into automatic anti-collision systems and air traffic control. I suppose most people wouldn't want me to be a bit less risk-aware.

I don't want to see anyone hurt and I don't want to see anyone hung outside to dry. Nor do I want to see disproportionate ass-covering exercises. Just beware that once a piece of gear leaves your hands, it could wind up in those of complete idiots.

Legend has it that the individual with the poodle and the microwave cooker won her lawsuit.

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Old 28th May 2018, 3:50 pm   #60
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Legend has it that the individual with the poodle and the microwave cooker won her lawsuit.
Was that though American (USA) litigation? I hope so!
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