Extension socket problems - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

ricksteptoe · 3rd Oct 2016, 8:16 pm

Could someone help please?
I have just wired two extension sockets, but have a curious situation which I cannot seem to solve.
The two are in parallel as a spur off the master socket, the second works fine, the first behaves as if the wires to terminals 2 and 5 are reversed. Connecting a 232 to the first gives dial tone but will not dial out, I can hear incoming speech but cannot be heard. Connecting a recent phone, I get no dial tone just broadband hash (which I don't get with the 232).
I have checked all the wiring is correct, no transposed colours, and don't know what to do next! Wire and sockets are brand new.
Does anyone have any ideas?

Rick.

TonyDuell · 3rd Oct 2016, 8:29 pm

Just to confirm, you have a piece of cable from the master socket to extension socket 1. And another piece of cable from extension socket 1 to extension socket 2. All the colours match up.

Are the 2 extenson sockets of the same type and make? I wonder if the terminals are mis-numbered in socket 1.

I think at this point I would disconnect the wiring from the master socket and check for continuity between the terminals and the actual contacts in the socket at each extension.

julie_m · 3rd Oct 2016, 8:50 pm

The obvious test, if you think you have transposed pins 2 and 5 somewhere, would be to apply a multimeter set to 200 V DC across pins 2 and 5 of each socket.

AC/HL · 3rd Oct 2016, 8:55 pm

Also, don't rule out a faulty socket. I was led a merry dance recently, although it was one of those cheap ones.

ricksteptoe · 3rd Oct 2016, 11:12 pm

Thanks for the replies, The sockets are identical, all purchased at the same time, the wiring runs from the master to socket 1, thence to socket 2, and all colours match, i.e. pin 2 to 2 to 2, 3 to 3 to 3, etc. I cannot see how the wires could be transposed, but will check as per your hint with the meter. I will also substitute another socket in case of fault, but as they are pcb it could only be a bad contact in the socket, and I don't understand how this could give the effects.

Will report further progress.

Rick

Station X · 4th Oct 2016, 7:43 am

I assume these are EXTENSION sockets with no components on the PCB except for the socket itself? I have come across installations where more than one MASTER socket is fitted on the same line. There should only be one.

mike_newcomb · 4th Oct 2016, 4:35 pm

Hi Rick, you mention Broadband, do you have filters on all sockets?

If so, swop around and see if the problem moves.

I wondered the same as Graham if you had more than one Master socket fitted instead of only one plus two slaves.

Regards - Mike

JohnBHanson · 4th Oct 2016, 4:36 pm

If you can hear but not dial out, can you hear your own voice if you talk into the mouthpiece. It sounds like you have pins 2 and 3 crossed meaning the ring capacitor is in series with the line on the remote sockets.

Pins 2 and 5 should have a voltage across. Between Pin3 and Pin5 should be zero volts

Station X · 4th Oct 2016, 4:46 pm

We need to be very careful here.

P denotes Plug. J denotes Jack.

P5 mates with J2
P4 mates with J3
P2 mates with J5

It's lead me a merry dance when testing from the end of the cord.

ricksteptoe · 4th Oct 2016, 6:36 pm

Hi all,
I have re-checked all the wiring back to the master socket, all are definitely wired the same, no transposition of wires, I have substituted a different brand of socket in position 1 which has screw terminals rather than the push fit type which behaves exactly the same as the other.
I have also installed another socket downstream of the "faulty" one, which works perfectly. I cannot figure how the first one doesn't work but the subsequent ones do, If I had crossed wires the should all not work.

Filters installed at all sockets today, and the p5-j2 problem doesn't arise as these are all hard-wired, trying yet another phone makes no difference.

Wired blue/white stripe from 2 on master socket to all other 2's
white/blue stripe from 5 on master socket to all other 5's
orange/white stripe from 3 on master socket to all other 3's
all as per instructions ontelephonesuk.co.uk site.

What have I done wrong?

Rick.

julie_m · 4th Oct 2016, 6:42 pm

Get a meter on the case! That will tell you at once if you have any wires transposed.

Station X · 4th Oct 2016, 6:46 pm

From what I remember these sockets use Insulation Displacement Connectors (IDC's) where the wires are pushed between two sharp blades.

Can you use a meter to check continuity between the IDC's and the "fingers" in the socket. Alternatively plug a line cord into the socket and test from the end of this, but remember the 2-5 cross over.

TonyDuell · 4th Oct 2016, 7:03 pm

Logically, one of the things that could cause socket 1 and socket 2 to behave differently is a break in one of the wires between them.

I don't see how this could cause the symptoms you are getting, but what happens if you disconnect both wires from terminal 3 of socket 1 and make sure they don't touch anything else?

ricksteptoe · 4th Oct 2016, 7:27 pm

Will meter it all out, and if that fails will re-wire.
Who knows, it might make a difference?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, I'm sure I shall have to seek help when it comes to wiring in my Stirling U353 phone

regards,

Rick.

3rd Oct 2016, 8:16 pm	#1
ricksteptoe Pentode Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 149	Extension socket problems Could someone help please? I have just wired two extension sockets, but have a curious situation which I cannot seem to solve. The two are in parallel as a spur off the master socket, the second works fine, the first behaves as if the wires to terminals 2 and 5 are reversed. Connecting a 232 to the first gives dial tone but will not dial out, I can hear incoming speech but cannot be heard. Connecting a recent phone, I get no dial tone just broadband hash (which I don't get with the 232). I have checked all the wiring is correct, no transposed colours, and don't know what to do next! Wire and sockets are brand new. Does anyone have any ideas? Rick.

3rd Oct 2016, 8:29 pm	#2
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,208	Re: Extension socket problems Just to confirm, you have a piece of cable from the master socket to extension socket 1. And another piece of cable from extension socket 1 to extension socket 2. All the colours match up. Are the 2 extenson sockets of the same type and make? I wonder if the terminals are mis-numbered in socket 1. I think at this point I would disconnect the wiring from the master socket and check for continuity between the terminals and the actual contacts in the socket at each extension.

3rd Oct 2016, 8:50 pm	#3
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: Extension socket problems The obvious test, if you think you have transposed pins 2 and 5 somewhere, would be to apply a multimeter set to 200 V DC across pins 2 and 5 of each socket. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

3rd Oct 2016, 8:55 pm	#4
AC/HL Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 9,642	Re: Extension socket problems Also, don't rule out a faulty socket. I was led a merry dance recently, although it was one of those cheap ones.

3rd Oct 2016, 11:12 pm	#5
ricksteptoe Pentode Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 149	Re: Extension socket problems Thanks for the replies, The sockets are identical, all purchased at the same time, the wiring runs from the master to socket 1, thence to socket 2, and all colours match, i.e. pin 2 to 2 to 2, 3 to 3 to 3, etc. I cannot see how the wires could be transposed, but will check as per your hint with the meter. I will also substitute another socket in case of fault, but as they are pcb it could only be a bad contact in the socket, and I don't understand how this could give the effects. Will report further progress. Rick

4th Oct 2016, 7:43 am	#6
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Extension socket problems I assume these are EXTENSION sockets with no components on the PCB except for the socket itself? I have come across installations where more than one MASTER socket is fitted on the same line. There should only be one. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

4th Oct 2016, 4:35 pm	#7
mike_newcomb Rest in Peace Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: West London, UK. Posts: 665	Re: Extension socket problems Hi Rick, you mention Broadband, do you have filters on all sockets? If so, swop around and see if the problem moves. I wondered the same as Graham if you had more than one Master socket fitted instead of only one plus two slaves. Regards - Mike

4th Oct 2016, 4:36 pm	#8
JohnBHanson Heptode Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Worthing, Sussex, UK. Posts: 661	Re: Extension socket problems If you can hear but not dial out, can you hear your own voice if you talk into the mouthpiece. It sounds like you have pins 2 and 3 crossed meaning the ring capacitor is in series with the line on the remote sockets. Pins 2 and 5 should have a voltage across. Between Pin3 and Pin5 should be zero volts

4th Oct 2016, 4:46 pm	#9
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Extension socket problems We need to be very careful here. P denotes Plug. J denotes Jack. P5 mates with J2 P4 mates with J3 P2 mates with J5 It's lead me a merry dance when testing from the end of the cord. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

4th Oct 2016, 6:36 pm	#10
ricksteptoe Pentode Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 149	Re: Extension socket problems Hi all, I have re-checked all the wiring back to the master socket, all are definitely wired the same, no transposition of wires, I have substituted a different brand of socket in position 1 which has screw terminals rather than the push fit type which behaves exactly the same as the other. I have also installed another socket downstream of the "faulty" one, which works perfectly. I cannot figure how the first one doesn't work but the subsequent ones do, If I had crossed wires the should all not work. Filters installed at all sockets today, and the p5-j2 problem doesn't arise as these are all hard-wired, trying yet another phone makes no difference. Wired blue/white stripe from 2 on master socket to all other 2's white/blue stripe from 5 on master socket to all other 5's orange/white stripe from 3 on master socket to all other 3's all as per instructions ontelephonesuk.co.uk site. What have I done wrong? Rick.

4th Oct 2016, 6:42 pm	#11
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: Extension socket problems Get a meter on the case! That will tell you at once if you have any wires transposed. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

4th Oct 2016, 6:46 pm	#12
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,288	Re: Extension socket problems From what I remember these sockets use Insulation Displacement Connectors (IDC's) where the wires are pushed between two sharp blades. Can you use a meter to check continuity between the IDC's and the "fingers" in the socket. Alternatively plug a line cord into the socket and test from the end of this, but remember the 2-5 cross over. __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

4th Oct 2016, 7:03 pm	#13
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,208	Re: Extension socket problems Logically, one of the things that could cause socket 1 and socket 2 to behave differently is a break in one of the wires between them. I don't see how this could cause the symptoms you are getting, but what happens if you disconnect both wires from terminal 3 of socket 1 and make sure they don't touch anything else?

4th Oct 2016, 7:27 pm	#14
ricksteptoe Pentode Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 149	Re: Extension socket problems Will meter it all out, and if that fails will re-wire. Who knows, it might make a difference? Thanks for all the help and suggestions, I'm sure I shall have to seek help when it comes to wiring in my Stirling U353 phone regards, Rick.