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Old 7th Jun 2018, 1:10 pm   #121
kalee20
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio263 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2collection View Post
I can tell you, it's illegal to sell an item with a non-safety (uninsulated Live & Neutral pins) mains plug & has been illegal since 1975 apparently.
Apart form the MK ones, plugs with partially sleeved L and N pins were not generally available until the late 1980s, so that has to be wrong. Those bright red plastic (e.g. very 1980s) WG mains plugs have uninsulated pins, and you could buy those everywhere. Unless I've got hold of the wrong end of stick the book is rubbish (copyright or not).
Me too - I bought plugs with unsleeved pins, new, in 1976 which is a year AFTER 1975!

Generally, when new laws come in, there is plenty of notice so that industry can plan a transition time, so when the date arrives the old-stock is already well purged and compliant types established.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 3:03 pm   #122
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
Just bear with me GJ, for a day or so. The reason for the wee query is a friendly attempt to clarify the reasons why Government/Industry technocrats write all these mandatory regulations (going back decades), which some folk find confusing & sometimes intrusive. Whether it be 30 odd million homes in the UK, half a million factories, or just a thousand or two vintage mains radios. The two Scientific Factors are nothing new and are easy for all to comprehend. They are hammered into every trainee/apprentice from week one in some form or another. Graphic films are often shown in technical colleges, training depts., etc. There - I've started to give clues.

Regards, David
I couldn't find the a two-principle mantra you may be alluding to, but I did find this nice quote:

You often hear the statement that “safety is
paramount”, especially after a major accident.
However, a balanced view must be taken, in which
safety does not dominate and prevent effective
business, nor is it ignored as has often occurred in
the past. Good safety management allows you to
do safely what you want to do: it is not about
avoiding doing something just in case it is harmful.
The Ministry of Defence’s (MOD’s) “business”
involves providing military capability and so it will
tolerate some safety risk exposure in order to
achieve this: what is important is that the risk
exposure is understood, managed to low levels
and justified by the benefits gained.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...BookIssue3.pdf
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 6:01 pm   #123
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Graham, answer given in post 118 yesterday. Many thanks for showing us the latest MOD Booklet. For nearly 15 years of RAF service, earlier booklets, regulations, etc., governed my electronics career. Back in the 60's & 70's, the Armed Forces were a lot lot bigger than today, and NCO's & Officers a lot more unbending in interpreting safety regulations. I guess that's contributed to my present forthright views in this thread.

Regards, David
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 10:46 am   #124
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Very worthwhile points. Whilst the majority of joe public isn't aware of sleeved/unsleeved plugs until they see Mark 1 and Mark 2 sitting next to each other (much the same way two blue cars thought to be identical are seen not to be when parked next to each other) increased awareness is generally a good thing in my opinion. One thing it highlights is certain territories manufacturing plugs with sleeved EARTH pins.. The amount of garbage coming in on the boat/s makes a mockery of our domestic regs., and the choice of 13A plug type can seem like a shoulder shrugging issue by comparison to the imports that the 'Ralph Naders' of electrical goods' expose on youtube.

One thing that does genuinely give me the creeps is metal bodied power drills- all mine now live with a portable RCD and there are too many variables for me to want to risk relying solely on the consumer unit trip.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 3:43 pm   #125
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
Two ultimate undisputable scientific factors :- PSCC & 30mS ! Everything we all do, from power station managers to folk who install high speed modern domestic MCB's, and the mannie who tests your RCD before it leaves the factory, is to ensure that fault currents can never last longer than a uS or so, and your RCD operates a lot quicker than a maximum of 30 mS.
Your point may be valid, but do not forget that there are many houses without RCD's, including mine! (I thought I had one, but recently identified it as some earth leakage device made by Crabtree, which will not save my life, and many of these were installed throughout the UK up until the time when RCD's first appeared). Getting some "Part 17" person to come in and sort it out is on my "to do" list.

B
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 1:27 am   #126
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
One thing it highlights is certain territories manufacturing plugs with sleeved EARTH pins.. The amount of garbage coming in on the boat/s makes a mockery of our domestic regs
Case in point:
This is the 240V submersible pump from an indoor water feature I bought from a local garden centre of good repute. Notice the sleeved earth pin.
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OK, it's a Class 2 appliance and the earth pin could just as well be all plastic, but it rang alarm bells.

Also the plug was fitted with a 13A fuse where I would have expected a 3A one.
Not only that, the fuse was considerably lighter in weight than a known genuine one, suggesting it had no quenching sand filling.
The fuse had no makers name or mark, which I understand is mandatory.

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Obviously I returned the item and told them my thoughts about it, they seemed genuinely concerned, and shared my view that even if mains submersible pumps are allowed, for this application a pump fed from low voltage transformer is the only sensible way to go.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 6:12 pm   #127
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I found a factory fitted plug on the igniter of a gas hob.
It had the fuse wire bent over the ceramic tube and then the end cap just shoved on. Of course it was 13 amp for maximum bang if there is a short.
It is now fused at 3 amps with a good fuse from Farnell.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 9:16 pm   #128
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Those fuses really are death traps. In the early 1970's mum's iron was fitted with one, and when the flex developed a short the copper vapour resulted in an arc within the plug in series with the arc in the flex. The arc resistance was sufficient not to blow the 30A wire fuse in the consumer unit. Fortunately mum was in the room and had the presence of mind to pull out the plug (it was an unswitched socket).
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 12:16 pm   #129
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Just came across “Tuttiaudio”, I have never heard of them before, they sell restored Dansette Record Players, among other audio items.

https://www.tuttiaudio.co.uk/

They make some interesting comments about safety and selling restored Record Players, thought members would be interested. I have no connection with this firm.

Cheers, John.

Last edited by Station X; 12th Jun 2018 at 12:25 pm. Reason: Link added.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 2:42 pm   #130
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John10b View Post
... They make some interesting comments about safety and selling restored Record Players ...
Would that be the bit where they say

Whether new or second hand, all electrical goods sold must meet the Electrical Equipment Safety Regulations 1994 (Low Voltage Directive).

?

If so then perhaps they haven't heard of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) regulations 2016 which have replaced the 1994 regs for new equipment. The 2016 regs say, and I am quoting straight from them:

3.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), these Regulations apply to electrical equipment—

(a) placed on the market on or after the commencement date ...


where

“placing on the market” means the first making available of electrical equipment on the EU market ...

(my bold). This is fundamental. The regs explicitly state, clearly and unambiguously, that they apply to equipment which has been sold for the first time since 2016. By extension they don't apply to equipment which was first sold before that date. I can't see how they could have been more clear about this.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 2:48 pm   #131
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

They're in business. They want to make money. A little dysangelism about the risks of improperly-restored equipment is pretty much to be expected .....
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 2:49 pm   #132
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

The requirements under the 1994 regs for second-hand equipment are summarised here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric...sponsibilities. There's no requirement for the bulk of the regulations to be satisfied (CE marking, documentation, testing etc). As has been said quite a few times above, equipment simply has to be 'safe'.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 3:33 pm   #133
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

On their web site they say something like “...we won’t sell record players that don’t have isolating transformers....” they then list some they won’t sell.
I just found it rather interesting.
Cheers
John
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