advice on selling

[doug1111]

Hi all,

I have a couple of vintage radios of no great value which I would like to put up for sale. I am concerned however about the legal implications if the purchaser subsequently sustained damage or injury. I have seen several disclaimers used, but I wonder if they have any legal standing?

Any thoughts on this much appreciated.

Regards,
Dougal.

[Steve_P]

Well, as long as you don't say 'Working' or 'Can be plugged straight into the mains' then you are OK. If you put the mains lead in the back without a plug on, then if the person who buys it then puts a plug on and tries it, then that is his problem and not yours.

People sell them all the time on Ebay etc, and in reality you have nothing to worry about. Or, you could put them in the Parts and Sets For Sale section below, at say £10 a time.

Cheers,

Steve P.

[GMB]

Another way to sell them would be to get the BVWS to sell them for you, at one of its auctions.

You are right to be careful about selling such things as it is now illegal to sell second hand electrical goods without a safety certification.
The standard way round this is to offer them as non-working "display only" items and with the plug removed.

[chipp1968]

I wouldnt worry about it as long as you stipulate the facts .Ie ,Non working ,Working but needs work .Restored , but caution re live chassis whatever .
If I were to sell my table saw I could worry that someone could cut off their arm ..
Obviously you need to point out any potential dangers to a buyer If they are new to vintage radios .

[phasedout]

Hi Dougal, for what its worth sell on Ebay, to be repaired not working, danger high voltages, are lethal. Some chop the mains lead off, just cover yourself. Thousands are sold and no problems, if bought by a radio restorer/ collecter no worries.......Alan.

[David G4EBT]

Originally Posted by GMB

You are right to be careful about selling such things as it is now illegal to sell second hand electrical goods without a safety certification. The standard way round this is to offer them as non-working "display only" items and with the plug removed.

It's only illegal to sell electrical goods that aren't tested and certified if you are a 'trader'.

If you are a genuine 'non-trader' seller, you will be largely outside the controls of consumer law, but there are exceptions: for example, if you describe goods in any way, and that description proves to be false, you will be obliged to give a refund.

For example, if someone says a dress is size 10 and it turns out to be size 8, or says a radio has valves and it has transistors, or describe it as in good working order when it's not, then there is legal redress. The descriptions of s/h radios on auction sites are a good indication of the wording that people use so that they are not seen to be misleading buyers. Invariably, the mains plug is chopped off so that whoever fits a plug has the onus upon them to make sure the equipment is safe.

Of course, many people who consider themselves to be 'private sellers' are in fact in the eyes of the law, 'traders' be it in the small ads, at boot sales or on auction sites. You only have to look how many transactions some sellers on auction sites make. They come well within the term 'trader'. I doubt it occurs to them that if we can see how many trades they've done, then so can trading standrds, and HMRC.

A survey has shown that most people who sell at boot sales and on auction sites don’t consider themselves to be traders. Many, however, admit to selling at such sales several times a year. Trading Standards reports that up to 50 per cent of participants are regulars at such events.

So, when does the law consider you a trader?

Advice from Trading Standards is as follows:

There is no hard and fast rule, but ask yourself the following questions:

• Are the goods you are selling your personal property? If not, and you buy goods in specifically to resell, for example from newspaper adverts or a cash and carry, you are very likely to be a trader.

•Do you attend boot sales regularly – once every couple of months or more? If so, you are likely to be a trader, even if boot sales are not a major source of income.

•Do you employ anyone to help you with sales? If so, you are probably a trader.

•Do you sell similar goods at other venues – e.g. markets, in the street or from home? If so, you are almost certainly a trader.

•How much of your income is derived from participation in car boot sales/auction sites and for what percentage of your income does it account?

I'd suggest that most people on the forum who buy and sell radios do so as enthusistic hobbysits who are doing nothing more than 'churning' their stock as they like to collect and restore old radios. There comes a point at which we run out of space, so if we buy a radio to restore, another has to go! In this respect, they can't be considered 'traders' and hence, are not subject to the same legal constraints as are traders.

Forum members have a ready made market if they wish to sell old radios at a sensible price to fellow forum members via the 'For Sale' section, and may even be able to arrange transport via the forum courier service.

At least that way, you know your radio is going to a good home and being bought by someone in the full knowledge of what they are buying, and what work is likely to need doing.

That's my two pennyworth.

David

[paulsherwin]

I've never heard of any private individual appearing in the criminal or civil courts as a result of selling an old radio.

On the very rare occasions I've sold a radio I've included the following:

"This is a vintage item and does not comply with modern electrical safety standards. It should not be connected to mains power unless it has been checked for safety by a suitably qualified person".

[murphyv310]

Paul's wording is ideal.
Though there is a problem.
If you are a qualified engineer with the relevant City & Guilds paperwork you are indeed a suitably qualified person, this unfortunately opens a bag of worms, in as much that if the buyer gets a shock or is injured you could well be sued.
This happened to a fellow engineer about 12 years ago that sold an old colour set, the set had a chassis that was at half mains potential and had a faulty aerial isolator, the purchaser got a nasty shock and received a very nasty cut, this person took my friend to court and he had to pay about £500 in damages.
So be very careful how you describe the item and never say you are qualified.

[doug1111]

hi all
thank you for your replies,and sorry for the delay.
quite a lot to digest, will get back tommorrow.
thank you again

dougal

[tracypaper]

I got some cse qualifications at school, but never did an apprenticeship in anything, but over many years of learning from qualified tradesmen I have become COMPETANT at many Things, I now fit windows, central heating systems, rewire houses, etc etc, most electrical items nowadays state in the user manuals to be fitted by a qualified engineer or a COMPETANT person, perhaps Stating that "this vintage radio was serviced by a competant person" might get round the Qualified problem that murphyv310 mentions.
??

my peneth worth
Gaz.

[PJL]

I have used similar wording "as with any vintage equipment this radio does not comply to modern electrical safety standards and the buyer connects it to the mains at their own risk" I think you could also add "if you do not understand these risks you should seek advice from a qualified person"

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by tracypaper

.....I have become COMPETANT at many Things, I now fit windows, central heating systems, rewire houses, etc etc,...

I do hope you are FENSA registered, Gassafe registered and are qualified to self-certify to Part P. Even if you are competent, these are all legal requirements. Though windows and electricals can alternatively be certified by building control for a fee.

Originally Posted by tracypaper

....stating that "this vintage radio was serviced by a competant person" might get round the Qualified problem....

You are creating a chain of responsibility here. You are claiming that you know the person is suitably qualified and competent. One then hopes that the competent person carries adequate public and professional liability insurance.

[murphyv310]

I must agree with Jeffrey.
Yes indeed you could well be "competent" at what you do, although as I have said in the past you need a reference point to judge your skills, hence the training needed to do these kind of jobs with re-fresher courses and examinations every few years.

One reason why my friend was taken to court was that he had the relevant papers to say he was qualified and from what I remember that was what was said in court!

He sold the TV from his house as he bought a new set, the purchaser new he was a qualified engineer and after the accident went to court, but if he was just a punter I doubt it would have held water in court.

[MichaelR]

The law states that you have redress if you are a trader as has been pointed out . A private seller can still be held to consumer legislation for mis representing the product , however I would not have expected Murphy's fiend to have been sued unless incourt they could prove he was in some way trading.

This is the point with being a member of this forum for instance in that it could be argued legally that it shows some level of possible trading liklihood not a "one off" private sale. People have been typed as traders by the police for instance because they have been proven to regularly visit car boot sales ( not trade ).

It is a very grey area and I personally would take the side of caution and clearly state that what you are selling needs to be checked by some competent authority.

Mike