Using original mains connectors

[Boulevardier]

"We all possess a kitchen appliance with multiple wide apertures, wide enough to allow touching of live (and hot) parts inside, I refer of course to the humble pop-up toaster."

Which is a very good point - any as-original 1940s/1950s radio is almost certainly far less of a threat to life and limb than that brand-new pop-up toaster on your kitchen worktop right now...

Mike

[Refugee]

Even a manual cooking knife can fall off the edge of a worktop and send you limping to casualty without any electrical power being involved.
We still need common sense at the end of the day.
Put the knife away properly when it is not in use.

[David Simpson]

I suggested this last time - perhaps a forum member &/or BVWS member with a degree in Electrical/Electronics Engineering would kindly contact a senior member of the IET, and obtain a written judgement(so to speak) of the legal & safety, and Regulations compliance issues presented here on this thread.
Last time I checked into their website, (before Covid) the IET provided an online & telephone advisory service. Plus, a technical Forum facility, similar to this.
If anyone on this forum wishes to poke a bread knife into their 21st century toaster, then beforehand - tell your partner of close family member not to expect a dime from your personal insurance policy, or house policy(if a third party visitor is standing next to you).

Regards, David

[Graham G3ZVT]

As we know, those disposing of vintage electricals by way of trade often try to cover themselves by various ploys, including incantations such as "For ornamental purposes only", or cutting off, or not including the plug/lead in the sale.
I suspect these expedients might help, but can never fully protect the seller.

[G6Tanuki]

IMHO the answer has to be 'it depends'.

I don't really do much with 'domestic' radios/TVs but understand the risks and issues. Personally with such radios I would replace the original plug/socket arrangement with a captive cable/moulded-3-pin plug, the cable being fixed within the radio using two forms of retention [my general thing being to fit a screw-up cable-gland to the chassis, and further retain the cable against pulling-out by putting a couple of cable-ties round it on the chassis-side of the gland].

Alternatively, re-punch the space where a legacy connector was fitted and install an IEC309 chassis-receptacle.

When I rebuilt my Eddystone 840A I removed the original 2-pin chassis-receptacle and broached-out one of the holes to take a six-pin Bulgin "Buccaneer" connector - I considered this to be both sufficiently in the spirit of a 'professional' radio and also sufficiently-unusual that if the radio were ever to become separated from its power-lead it would reduce the likelihood of any ad-hoc connections.

Another topic-for-discussion: the 840A is designed for AC/DC operation and has a fuse in both 'poles' of the supply; I have retained this but some people dislike the idea of fusing the negative/neutral/ground-side of a supply. What do you do?

[murphyv310]

Originally Posted by ms660

I would always use an isolating transformer.

Lawrence.

Each set would need a separate isolating transformer then, expensive and impractical IMHO.
Best way to go for a set or sets used in the house is to mark the back cover with Red and Black paint adjacent to the respective pins on the radio and do likewise on the socket so its clear what way round the socket goes, use a plug in RCD if necessary.
The old bakelite sockets are actually very tough and well insulated when in use. I solder the flex and don't rely on the screws a little araldite on the body if there is not grip that can be tightened.
Also if there are any metal bolts exposed on an AC/DC set replace them with nylon bolts/screws. knobs with grub screws fill the hole in the knobs with wax. There are many things to make the sets "safe".

[ms660]

Originally Posted by murphyv310

Each set would need a separate isolating transformer then, expensive and impractical IMHO.

I would only want one radio on at a time, the chances are that some of the radios in a multiple radio collection have mains transformers fitted anyways.

Every workshop I worked in (and there's been a few) bar one had an isolating transformer fitted to the work bench.

For beginners....Without an isolating transformer the risk of a Live to Earth shock between chassis and Earth doesn't end with the chassis being at the Neutral side so to speak, there's the possibility of Neutral interrupts or a Live side switch fault or a receivers single pole on/off switch being in the Neutral side etc.

Often the advice of folks on this forum to a beginner who want's to start with mains radios is to start with radios that have an isolating transformer fitted as opposed to radios that are of a Live chassis design, I guess there's a reason for that.

Having witnessed the failure of RCD's and some nasty shock events throughout my time in the trade it's an isolating transformer for me.

Lawrence.

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

I suggested this last time - perhaps a forum member &/or BVWS member with a degree in Electrical/Electronics Engineering would kindly contact a senior member of the IET, and obtain a written judgement(so to speak) of the legal & safety, and Regulations compliance issues presented here on this thread ...

I'd be interested to hear what the IET would say in reply, but I think I know.

When I asked Trading Standards what 'safe' meant they told me, in absolute black and white, that no-one's opinion on that is definitive except the courts' opinion. The legislation (at the time) only required that all equipment 'brought to market' be 'safe'. Equipment manufactured after a certain date also had to be CE marked, certifying its compliance with the harmonised standards, including the safety ones. But vintage equipment didn't have to. If it did comply then they felt that would be 'a very strong defence' in the event of it harming someone. But even then the court could, theoretically at least, decide to discount it.

So given that the only authority is the court's authority, I imagine the IET would say "Sorry, we are not the authority here, the courts are. We can chew the fat along with everyone else, and express our opinions, and say what we wish the truth was, but that's all we'd be doing. If you try to use our consensus view (assuming we could arrive at one) in evidence then the court might choose to listen to it. But it might not."

As I say though, that's just my guess.

Cheers,

GJ

[Red to black]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

I suggested this last time - perhaps a forum member &/or BVWS member with a degree in Electrical/Electronics Engineering would kindly contact a senior member of the IET, and obtain a written judgement(so to speak) of the legal & safety, and Regulations compliance issues presented here on this thread..

Regards, David

Good luck with that! the IET won't even put their name to current standards! without a multitude of caveats, and even then they they still won't put their name down placing the onus on an individual/company to merely follow their guidelines! and you should comply.

I have also said before " the Earth everything brigade" are just as bad! introducing a possible hazard where none previously existed.

Another poster mentioned bringing things up to "current standards", this is even worse because few people even know what the current standard is!, me included btw, by modifying something away from the standard it was designed to (which you don't know either) leaves you wide open because very few people would be able certify this is correct unless you have very deep pockets, far, far better leaving it as it was originally intended, Also by modifying it trying to attain modern standards (which may not even be possible!) you have just accepted the full design for the item yourself which I can almost certainly guarantee you won't understand! and yes I would cut the plug off too if I was selling it!

A little knowledge is dangerous!

PS. a former member of the IET

[stitch1]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

I suggested this last time - perhaps a forum member &/or BVWS member with a degree in Electrical/Electronics Engineering would kindly contact a senior member of the IET, and obtain a written judgement(so to speak) of the legal & safety, and Regulations compliance issues presented here on this thread.
Last time I checked into their website, (before Covid) the IET provided an online & telephone advisory service. Plus, a technical Forum facility, similar to this.
If anyone on this forum wishes to poke a bread knife into their 21st century toaster, then beforehand - tell your partner of close family member not to expect a dime from your personal insurance policy, or house policy(if a third party visitor is standing next to you).

Regards, David

Sometimes if you’re not going to like the answer it’s best not to ask the question.

I can see this is an issue to people who are “restoring” equipment and selling it on as useable but as a collector I rarely sell on and if I do no matter how much time I’d put in I’d remove the plug and sell as display only. I know this doesn’t mitigate my responsibility but I couldn’t sleep at night selling a ‘working’ radio to someone who had no knowledge of vintage electronics. A fault could appear any time and they could try and fix it, the investigation then follows to who supplied this and did it meet current safety requirements.

I have around 50 sets on display most can be powered up in situ, I’ve never used an isolating transformer but being trained on high voltage equipment I work in a safe manner. Yes you can use that on my gravestone

John

[murphyv310]

Originally Posted by ms660

I would only want one radio on at a time, the chances are that some of the radios in a multiple radio collection have mains transformers fitted anyways.

Every workshop I worked in (and there's been a few) bar one had an isolating transformer fitted to the work bench.

For beginners....Without an isolating transformer the risk of a Live to Earth shock between chassis and Earth doesn't end with the chassis being at the Neutral side so to speak, there's the possibility of Neutral interrupts or a Live side switch fault or a receivers single pole on/off switch being in the Neutral side etc.

Often the advice of folks on this forum to a beginner who want's to start with mains radios is to start with radios that have an isolating transformer fitted as opposed to radios that are of a Live chassis design, I guess there's a reason for that.

Having witnessed the failure of RCD's and some nasty shock events throughout my time in the trade it's an isolating transformer for me.

Lawrence.

I wouldn't dream of working on any radio or TV without an isolating tx. In fact during some of the time in the trade I was a shop steward and safety officer. This culminated in a company that I worked with in Gourock that repaired monitors. The metal benches were earthed and no isolation was provided, only RCDs were fitted and there was a few belts. One guy was badly hurt when an RCD failed. It was the last straw, I spoke to the company H&S officer who immediately told me I don't know what I'm talking about. I retorted did you get your certificate from a lucky bag! I phoned HSE and the company were shut immediately, the H&S officer was sacked on the spot.

I wasn't talking about workshop conditions more day to day use. So although RCDs do on rare occasions fail they are better than nothing, some collectors have working radios and TVs in lounge, sitting room and bedrooms. Hotel in Skye I know has a vintage radio in every room, totally safe, no exposed parts, sealed knobs, back covers with internal mesh which allows cooling and have passed independent PAT testing. So yes they can be made safe.

[David Simpson]

As I said back in Post 3, all the issues , opinions, suggestions relating to Adrian's query, have been extensively "banged-on" about in earlier thread queries & replies. We're now approaching the same repedative "banging-on".
From my perspective - a simple fact - in England & Wales the IET Regulations are obligatory, but up here in Scotland they are Mandatory under the terms of the "Buildings Scotland Act". Years ago, prior to early retirement, wearing my Scottish Hydro-Electric Inspector's hat - new buildings, refuebished buildings, and just straight-forward house re-wires - all HAD to be inspected. With new builds - it was a case of No IEE/IET complience, no supply.Failure to have an electrician's "Blue Test Certificate Application Card" signed off by an Inspector was also picked up by the Council's building services dept. and a completion warrant not issued. Quite often, my inspection day would be the same as the Council mannie's inspection. Domestic premises, small industrial units, shops, and farms, etc., all came under our remit. If any such premises were seen to have the likes of unswitchable/unfusable/unearthed mains outlets - that was considered a heinous crime(so to speak) and in some cases the premised were denied or "cut-off" from the Utility's incoming supply.
All the palarver about Earthing/MCB's/RCD's and correct fusing has already been extensively "banged-on" about in past pages & sections of this forum site. Such safety methods are used to reduce the time(in mS) of electric shock exposure to humans, and prevent the possibility of fire damage to buildings(read up on PSCC). Now we are into the 21st century by 2 decades, and modern super reliable switchgear & wiring is available to all. So, Joe Blogs has a fullfilling career, retires, and says ' hey - vintage radio is just the ticket for a hobby'. So why the phook would he then commence to kit out his intended shed/workshop with sub-standard wiring & fit ancient un-fused cabling to old radios ? Likewise, the parents of young little Johny or Jenny, who who wish to join our vintage fraternity, would be apalled to read any opinions on this forum which encourage youngsters to use old duffer's old-fashioned methods.
I spent 12 years as a commercial diver, and about the same length of time as a recreational diver. When my eldest lad, then in his 20's, wished to follow in my footsteps, I demanded that he complete the full 13 week HSE Recognised commercial course at Fort William. Jesus - there is no way would I have recommended he ever use some of the equipment as myself back in the 60's, nor any of the pre-1982 HSE(Diving at Work Act) Regs diving methods.

Regards, David

[Red to black]

Again the building regs or diving regs have nothing to do with product standards, this is one of the pitfalls of trying to apply one set of regs to a totally different application, the same applies to the low voltage directive and the machinery directives and the PUWER regs, yes there is a certain amount of overlap, but unless you are fully conversant with the correct regs for the correct application then my advice still stands, simply don't do it!

Once you start modifying things without a full understanding of what you are doing and have certification to prove it you are accepting the full design and all subsequent liabilities that go with it, why would you want to take that responsibility on your own back?

ps. have a google of the PUWER regs to see what I mean

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

... Likewise, the parents of young little Johny or Jenny, who who wish to join our vintage fraternity, would be apalled to read any opinions on this forum which encourage youngsters to use old duffer's old-fashioned methods ...

I couldn't disagree more. I'd encourage everyone who works on any electronic equipment to think hard about safety before beginning. But if you are going to make early vintage electronics restoration your hobby then you're going to have to accept, for example, that you'll be working with "old duffer's old-fashioned" thermionic valves. And these will have potentially lethal 300-400V power supplies. If you can't work safely with them then you're not ready for this hobby.

Insisting instead that all the valves be torn out and replaced with more modern transistors because those are clearly safer, at least from a shock point of view, is ... well ... I confess I can't think of a polite word for it .

Cheers,

GJ

[Station X]

I'd say that my unmodified vintage radios are among the safest things in my house.

I could scald myself with hot water from a tap, shower head, saucepan or kettle. Upset a chip pan pouring boiling cooking oil over myself or even set fire to it Burn myself on the open fire, gas rings or electric toaster, Cut myself on a carving knife. Shove my fingers in a light socket. Fall down the stairs, fall out of a window etc. etc.

Then there's all the machine tools in the workshop, not forgetting hot soldering irons!

Then there's the garden. I could chop off my toes under the mower or snip off my fingers in the hedge trimmer.

[Red to black]

What happened was the 'legal trade' got involved, by this I mean if say an old item of equipment is still in use then provided it was built to the current regs of the time then this is fine, it complied when it was built and the standards are not retrospective.

As soon as you try to make it safer by modification it now has to comply with todays standard fully, no ifs or buts, so you are now accepting full responsibility for the design yourself and it better be fully up to todays standards or if something unfortunate happens it will be you in the dock.
Perverse as it may seem by trying, or indeed making it really safer in the real world you have just opened a massive can of worms, this is just the way the legal system works unfortunately, the 'blame game'

PS. although the standards are not retrospective as such, in certain circumstances (mainly fatalities) some measures did become mandatory, don't you just love the 'back handed' legal system, they do say the road to hell was paved with good intentions, nothing is ever simple!

[Radio Wrangler]

Nothing in life is risk-free.

Whether something is compliant with the law can only be determined for certain in a court of law. This is A) Very expensive in legal/court fees. B) Glacially slow. and C) carries the risk of prosecution.

If you want a qualified professional person to tell you how something should be done, that person is putting his own head on the block for any legal consequaences, and he'll want an awful lot of money to cover professional liability insurance.

So, No-one can tell you what the law is in enough detail to be of any use.

And you can't afford anyone who might be able to advise you on the record.

So, you're left with personal responsibility.

David

[ms660]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

Likewise, the parents of young little Johny or Jenny, who who wish to join our vintage fraternity, would be apalled to read any opinions on this forum which encourage youngsters to use old duffer's old-fashioned methods.

From an old duffer.....

Wot, like using an Isolating transformer?

Like one hand in the pocket?

Like taking voltage measurements as a basis for trouble shooting analysis?

Like testing capacitors at their working voltage?

Like learning some theory before jumping in?

Lawrence.

[Radio Wrangler]

Yeah, exactly Lawrence. Those are old fashioned methods. Young people want it all in app form...

David

[ms660]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

Yeah, exactly Lawrence. Those are old fashioned methods. Young people want it all in app form...

David

Of course using an app to get information on a subject is not just for the young folks is it..... I use them all the time.

Lots of opinions and assumptions.

I made an assumption once when being interviewed by Police Inspectors in a murder case many moons ago, the assumption was opposite phase, it taught me a very valuable lesson, especially when it comes to passing judgement.

Lawrence.