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Old 28th May 2012, 11:52 pm   #301
Nickthedentist
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I... fear we may already have answered the question of does it survive by the bickering in this thread, we have failed the test.
Well said.

But note that it's only a tiny minority of posts that stand out as falling below the usual standard of politeness that we have come to expect here.

Even so, all this does prove how important moderation is to keep things from falling apart.

Nick.
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Old 28th May 2012, 11:55 pm   #302
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no-one else wishes to know if you two have axes to grind with each other.
I didn't have an axe to grind until he started the sarcastic comments like ER..., Wakey Wakey, and the one about me living in another Universe
In which case, do the best thing you can do in that situation - ignore the comments and walk away. I do advocate fighting your corner, but only in less civilised parts of the internet, where asking for a bit of civility would not come to fruition.

Helped me when I was at school and still helps me today.

Now can we please end this spat between you and Sean, as far as public viewing goes? If you want to continue it - well the Private Messaging and email functions are there for a reason.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:02 am   #303
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I have asked Sean not to reply to any post that I make, both on this thread and by PM
If he does not try to interact with me (as per my request) I can see no more problems.
But I can not accept people disrespecting me with the sort of rubbish that he chose to start.
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:05 am   #304
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I have asked Sean not to reply to any post that I make, both on this thread and by PM
If he does not try to interact with me (as per my request) I can see no more problems.
But I can not accept people disrespecting me with the sort of rubbish that he chose to start.
I'm not asking you to accept it - I don't accept any **** anyone gives me, but I use tactics that ensure they don't give me any more.

This is a public forum, people, to a certain extent, have to the right to criticise and say whatever they want and this is something that must be accepted when posting on a public forum like this - no matter what you do or say, someone will be there to pick holes. If you do not want him to interact with you, block him.

Can I remind people that if they want to cause trouble, please, don't post on these forums. If you don't want to, then don't.
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:17 am   #305
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Can I remind people that if they want to cause trouble, please, don't post on these forums. If you don't want to, then don't.
I was always taught that if someone starts trouble with me, I am allowed to defend myself.
I have used that all of my life, I try never to start the trouble and I started no trouble here either.
I was not the one who disrespected Sean in the first instance, and have asked him to not post in response to anything that I write. As long as he does this then there is no more problem.
Lets not start a new argument over this.
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Old 29th May 2012, 4:12 am   #306
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Well said Richard in post 299!

Also it's very easy to take offence from written posts when none is intended. You don't have the body language, tone of voice or facial expression to help convey meaning that you would get from normal interaction.

Michael.
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Old 29th May 2012, 7:35 am   #307
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Desperately looking for the gagged smilie.....

I think I have probably done enough to defend the position of the moderating style here, sadly one or two members insist on being obtuse and destructive.

I have no desire for conflict, I won't allow this thread to devolve to the level of the PMs I am now attracting.

These PMs have been reported, and I will leave it to the management to deal with.

As I have already stated,

I will donate to keep the forum running.
I would not support any move to reduce the high standard that exists now.
I support the current moderating and ownership
I stand by the rule "if you dont like it go elsewhere"

I'm off to build a new workshop now, much more effective use of my time.
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Old 29th May 2012, 7:54 am   #308
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Now, how can you write a set of rules to allow for every variation etc etc, you can't, so you adapt as you go.
Not too difficult. Here is a case where less is more. If you try to legislate in detail for every case you will tie yourself in knots. If you have one basic rule that's roughly: "We expect everyone to behave in a sensible and reasonable way" that allows for flexibility and can be used to meet almost any situation. It allows the vast majority of decent folk to get on with things, unworried by rules, it allows the moderators to concentrate on what really important, the book can still be thrown at the tiny number of real offenders. Treat people as responsible adults (with apologies to those members who are still legal minors but give us real hope for the rising generation) and they will nearly always behave like responsible adults. Fence them in with prescriptive rules and they will show their displeasure, as this and other recent threads have shown.

OK, you need a bit more in the rulebook than I have suggested but not a lot.

Peter the organ wrote:
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However it is the property and creation of one person, Paul Stenning, and as far as I can see it he is free to do absolutely what he likes.
This is technically true at the moment. Let's say he decided to call it a day, dumped the whole lot and closed the forum. He would be acting within the rules. Please take me metaphorically here as I am not advocating violence, but there will be a mob armed with hot soldering irons and high voltage probes descending on Bournemouth. Since he has on occasion threatened to do just that this demonstrates why the existing arrangements are no longer fit for purpose.

Many people, perhaps a large majority, are happy to go along with the rules for most of the time and not ask awkward questions. This is true in all walks of life. I'll even put myself in that category for a lot of the time. You get a few hotheads who stir for the sake of it and a very few brave souls who stand up against genuine tyrrany. Then you get the "concerned citizen". Quite a few of us in this thread fall into that category which is why we are having this debate at all.

In our own small corner of the real and virtual worlds this forum has grown to be bigger than any of us. I don't mean just physically bigger though that is true. I'm talking about the sum total of contributions, great, small and trivial taken together as representing the accumulated effort and wisdom of a community. I'm getting perilously close to Godwin's Law (google it if you haven't come across it before) when I make the plea: "Don't burn books".

We have proved beyond reasonable doubt that funding and hosting are entirely solvable problems. There are details to be worked out but nothing beyond the capability of a few sensible folk. The hard part is working out a structure with the right balace of powers, rights and responsibilities to safeguard and build on what we have already achieved.

After around 300 posts, I'd like to look back at my post #11, where I picked up on my "manifesto" thread which was effectively amalgamated into this one. I shall quote my original manifesto post verbatim:

Quote:
I'm not very good at writing constitutions and similar stuff but recent events here at UKVRR have led me to wonder on its place in the grand scheme of things. It may only be an internet forum but it clearly has significant value to a significant number of people. Perhaps I'm being a pompous twit to even try to say this but here goes. You're welcome to throw the internet version of rotten fruit at me if you wish but I'm the only target for such personal criticism here. Please don't criticise others in this thread.

  1. The worth of UKVRR lies with all its members. Those who own, those who moderate, those who write, those who read. Loss of any of these substantially reduces the worth of UKVRR
  2. Such worth is not proportional to the quantity of contributions. A newcomer with just a few posts can contribute as much worth as somebody with many.
  3. The UKVRR is probably the world's largest repository of knowledge about vintage wireless and allied subjects. Certainly the UK's largest. Its loss would be a substantial loss to the world community of those interested in these subjects.

My final plea in this post is "Stop the abuse." I probably should have used the actual anglo-saxon word here in blatant contravention of the rules just to get folk to sit up and take notice. There have been several posts in open forum that have been the wrong side of the line. If it could be taken as personal abuse, but not intended that way, then don't post it. Or if you already have, then apologise and withdraw the remark. Hate mail, by PM or otherwise is equally unacceptable. It is unfortuante that Sean and I are on opposite sides in this debate but I wouldn't dream of insulting him in a PM or email.

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Old 29th May 2012, 8:27 am   #309
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I was always taught "LEAST SAID, SOONEST MENDED".
Would seam that could be applied here.
Rob
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Old 29th May 2012, 8:37 am   #310
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Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
Here is a case where less is more. If you try to legislate in detail for every case you will tie yourself in knots. If you have one basic rule that's roughly: "We expect everyone to behave in a sensible and reasonable way" that allows for flexibility and can be used to meet almost any situation.
I think this thread is proof that this will never work.

David
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Old 29th May 2012, 8:57 am   #311
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A search on this forum will always return educational, informative and relevant results. This is why many of us stay and contribute. This is not by accident, it takes rules, administration and moderation.

The forum has outgrown the current management methods as they are too time consuming and are not raising sufficient funds. We now need to put in place a new framework that allows the forum to continue to grow whilst retaining the quality of the content which this site is renown for.

My personal recommendation would be:
1. Members only section. Modest annual subscription fee.
2. Voluntary contribution button with usual target graphic and warnings of impending doom if not met.
3. A move to moderation by exception with members all having some moderating responsibilities. A 'report' button only available to members. A 'like' button or similar which will determine if a thread is to be kept.
4. Maintenance of strict rules which would ban members who are reported too often or 'report' too often.

The attraction of this forum is the governance that keeps threads on topic. If the content all ended up like this thread I doubt anyone would use the forum. This is a community and we need rules to live in harmony. Those that are willing to give up their time to administrate the forum have earned the right to determine the rules.

PS: I am surprised I have 2000 posts worthy of keeping!

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Old 29th May 2012, 9:09 am   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
Here is a case where less is more. If you try to legislate in detail for every case you will tie yourself in knots. If you have one basic rule that's roughly: "We expect everyone to behave in a sensible and reasonable way" that allows for flexibility and can be used to meet almost any situation.
I think this thread is proof that this will never work.
David, I thought carefully about what you've just said because it seems self evident. Then I realised that:

1: If we had simplified rules then this thread would likely not have occurred in the first place

2: Even if it did, it would have been resolved amicably or run out of steam long ago
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Old 29th May 2012, 9:11 am   #313
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The forum has outgrown the current management methods as they are too time consuming and are not raising sufficient funds. We now need to put in place a new framework that allows the forum to continue to grow whilst retaining the quality of the content which this site is renown for.
Totally agree. I don't fully agree with your suggestions for a new system but that's a matter for normal debate and reasoned argument.
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Old 29th May 2012, 9:22 am   #314
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The attraction of this forum is the governance that keeps threads on topic. If the content all ended up like this thread I doubt anyone would use the forum. This is a community and we need rules to live in harmony.
I totally agree, although reading this thread, a significant minority of members would appear to feel that some aspects of the moderation is too strict and/or un-necessary at the moment.

Speaking as someone who was very briefly a moderator, the amount of work the mods do behind the scenes is absolutely immense, and we all owe them a great deal of thanks for giving up significant amounts of time to help the forum run smoothly.

Like others, I do feel that there are ways that the load on the mods could be lightened without adversely affecting the smooth running of the forum e.g. by turning a blind eye to all but the worst spelling and grammatical errors, and spending less time archiving, now that the excellent Google search function is in place.

Nick.
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Old 29th May 2012, 10:58 am   #315
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So what exactly are the moderators doing wrong?

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Old 29th May 2012, 11:23 am   #316
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Assuming your question's aimed at me, David, I don't feel that the mods are doing anything "wrong" at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

All I was trying to say is that maybe they could achieve more, avoid offending some valued forum members, and make their workload less onerous by changing the emphasis slightly.

Nick
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Old 29th May 2012, 11:32 am   #317
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The last two or three pages have been little more than bitching and arguing, and have completely lost track of the purpose of this thread.

Yet again a good example of what happens when a forum is not moderated, and of the sort of thread that ends up in the skip and ultimately deleted.

We have so many post reports about this thread that they are taking time away from moderating the rest of the forum.

This is the second such thread recently.

When I see this sort of thing going on I really do wonder why I bother, why I am spending time trying to find a workable solution to the technical problems here, investigating viable hosting options and prices, etc.

I don't get anything for it. It's supposed to be a hobby, it's supposed to be fun. But right now I and several of the other mods are sick of the whole thing. The temptation to just close it and call it a day has never been greater.

THREAD CLOSED.

Once we have reviewed it certain trouble-making contributors may find themselves banned.

Any attempt to restart this discussion (any of the subjects raised here) in other threads will result in bans.

The future of the forum is still in the balance - more-so than ever after this.
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