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Old 7th Dec 2018, 7:33 pm   #1
Panrock
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Default Long Wave during the War

In an interesting post elsewhere about the Wartime Civilian Receiver, we learn that Long Wave broadcasting ceased in Great Britain during WWII .

What about in Germany and the rest of the world? In particular, for what was Long Wave used, if anything, in North and South America?

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 7:42 pm   #2
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

It may have ceased for UK broadcasts, but it flourished for overseas broadcasts into occupied Europe, hence Ottringham (OSE5), near Hull: one of the most powerful LW stations in the world at 800kW transmitter power (run at 600kW).

Ottringham from 1943 to 1953, was guarded by armed guards and after that, the transmitters were installed at Droitwich as the Light Programme, later Radio 4 transmitters on 200kHz.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 8:18 pm   #3
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

German foreign language propaganda was broadcast by Die Deutschen Europasender on two long-wave transmitters during WWII: Weischel, or Bremen II broadcast programmes in eight different languages into Eastern Europe from its transmitter at Warsaw-Raszyn in Poland.

A 120kW LW transmitter 'Friesland' was located at Kootwijk in Holland, and covered Northern Europe.

In May 1939 a 165kW LW 'Deutschlandsender' transmitter went on-air at Herzberg.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 8:19 pm   #4
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Im guessing the sunspots were favourable too, based on uboat comms. successes, so 600kw of longwave would have been mighty good around the globe!
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 8:20 pm   #5
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

I didn't know about Ottringham - most interesting. What frequency was it on? This information doesn't fall readily to hand with a quick online search.

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:00 pm   #6
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

200kHz until 1945. The 200kHz frequency was transferred to Droitwich and Ottringham then broadcast on 250kHz. But the second harmonic interfered with the maritime distress frequency of 500kHz, so the frequency was changed to 271kHz in September 1945.

A few weeks later the frequency was changed to 167kHz with a power restriction of 200kW until the Copenhagen Plan of 1950, after which it was 200kHz, but outside domestic broadcasting hours.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:07 pm   #7
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panrock View Post
This information doesn't fall readily to hand with a quick online search.
Try Googling 'OSE5 Ottringham' Steve. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:23 pm   #8
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

"What about in Germany and the rest of the world? In particular, for what was Long Wave used, if anything, in North and South America?"

To echo Steve's question, is there any information on the situation (historically and currently) on LW broadcasting outside Europe?

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:27 pm   #9
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulevardier View Post
"What about in Germany and the rest of the world?
A little on post 3 about this one. Germany, anyway.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:30 pm   #10
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Thanks, but I was thinking more about RoW - outside Europe, or outside northern Europe anyway.

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 9:36 pm   #11
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
Try Googling 'OSE5 Ottringham' Steve. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
I just have - again. In the four resulting links I quickly scanned, I couldn't see any mention of the actual frequencies.

All the more reason to thank you for setting it out here...

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:09 pm   #12
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

BVWS members can find an article on BBC Ottringham in "The Bulletin" Vol 29 no 2 Summer 2004.


John.

Just realised the magazine is available on line as a PDF.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:35 pm   #13
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_transmitter

Operated around 16kHz for submarine comms.

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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:59 pm   #14
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Does VLF count? There were several VLF Alexandersson transmitters extant worldwide for radio telegraphy, but they were not long-wave broadcasting.

New Brunswick (13.761kHz and 13.274kHz): 1918 and 1920 to 1948 and 1948 respectively; Radio Central, Long Island (16.484kHz and 15.957kHz): 1921 to 1948; Tuckerton, NJ (16.304kHz and 13.575kHz): 1921 and 1922 to 1948 and 1948 respectively.

The U.S. Navy operated Haiku (Hawaii) Alexandersson alternator TX during WWII, operating from 1942 until 1946.

But it's doubtful that these signals would be received on a domestic set intended for broadcast use.
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Last edited by russell_w_b; 8th Dec 2018 at 12:25 am. Reason: Frequencies.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 12:42 am   #15
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

LW was never used for broadcasting in the Americas. I surmise that this was because radio broadcasting started and continued to develop as local and commercial, not requiring large area coverage outside of the towns and cities. Canada instituted its national CBC in the 30s but has stuck with the established bandplan.

LW was adopted for BC first in Europe in the 30s to give national coverage from a single tx, and nighttime international use. The coverage was suited to large countries with dispered population, in particular the Russian Soviets and in the Middle East. In Equatorial regions the use of LW was never attempted because of the constant 'spherics
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 1:02 am   #16
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Is that all the BVWS Magazines John?

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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:31 am   #17
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Hi Dave, Not checked how far back the magazines go, this was from 2004. I understand the LW transmitted from Ottringham was not intended for the British, most if not all was propaganda and broadcast in foreign languages.
BBC Ottringham 1943-1953 RIP.

Ps, I only know of one radio with BBC Ottringham marked on the dial, and this was released after the station was decommissioned (B&O) If anyone else knows of any more I would be interested to know.

Last edited by 60 oldjohn; 8th Dec 2018 at 10:36 am.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:34 am   #18
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by G4YVM David View Post
Im guessing the sunspots were favourable too, based on uboat comms. successes, so 600kw of longwave would have been mighty good around the globe!
David
David,

I'm not aware that sunspots have any influence on long wave propagation, which is essentially ground wave? That is the wave travels along the surface of the earth only.

As far as I know sunspots affect only skywave comms, where the state of the ionosphere becomes critical as to how well the reflection takes place - and at what frequency and angle of incidence such reflections can occur. Most people think about MUF (maximum usable frequency) when it comes to skywave, and clearly that is somewhere in the short wave spectrum - nowhere near the LW.

There is also a lowest usable frequency for skywave, where signals are absorbed by the ionosphere rather than reflected, and that gets worse as the frequency drops. As far as I know (I am not a propagation specialist) that is typically above about 2MHz - so again LW would have little chance of propagation via skywave (if I am right on that point).

Richard
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:51 am   #19
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
Does VLF count? There were several VLF Alexandersson transmitters extant worldwide for radio telegraphy, but they were not long-wave broadcasting.

New Brunswick (13.761kHz and 13.274kHz): 1918 and 1920 to 1948 and 1948 respectively; Radio Central, Long Island (16.484kHz and 15.957kHz): 1921 to 1948; Tuckerton, NJ (16.304kHz and 13.575kHz): 1921 and 1922 to 1948 and 1948 respectively.

The U.S. Navy operated Haiku (Hawaii) Alexandersson alternator TX during WWII, operating from 1942 until 1946.

But it's doubtful that these signals would be received on a domestic set intended for broadcast use.
Yes, strictly speaking, Long Wave is LF not VLF.

I noticed that in "Wireless For The Warrior", in the compendium on enemy radio equipment that quite a lot of German army WW2 sets used LF.

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Roger
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:59 am   #20
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Default Re: Long Wave during the War

Ottringham broadcast into Europe on medium wave too, during WWII. As did Droitwich (OSE 6).

Droitwich LW transmitter 5XX (previously at Daventry) broadcast the European Service on long-wave (200kHz) from 16 November 1941, but this was not receivable on the wartime 'utility' sets.
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