belts again! (including Philips 4307/8)

[geefunk]

hi guys,
sorry to do this to you but what size belts do i need? one of the provided links to buy accessories had two sets of belts for the Philips 4307/8 one with short winding belt, one with long. also reel-to-reel-man has a long one (no sniggering!), but i'm not sure if i need it .....does anyone know the difference and which i would need?
thanks again....

[reel-to-reel-man]

Originally Posted by geefunk

also reel-to-reel-man has a long one (no sniggering!)

Well... I don't wana to brag, bit its pretty big
the belt I have fits around a 7" reel easily, cant remember the formula,



Pie.R squared ? what was pie again 3.15?

[reelguy]

Hi Geefunk, Sorry I can't help with the correct size belt as I wasn't aware until I saw the description that 2 sizes of belt may have been used. You may have to measure {using a bit of string] the size of belt needed. The belt Reel to Reel man is suggesting may well be OK. But if its too long it could be cut and made slightly smaller using super glue.Yes it does work as long as you are careful. If you do measure the size using a piece of string, take a bit off to allow a bit of tension. Alternatively, Take your old belt with you to a local hifi shop. {NOT CURRYS or COMET} They may have a Turntable belt which is suitable, Go when its a bit quiet and they may have a rummage in a long forgotten drawer for something suitable!!! hope this helps. I have since found the website that Mijjko {Might have spelt that wrong !} mentioned in a previous post. http://www.donberg.ie/warehs/groupab.htm Regards Reelguy

[geefunk]

great stuff-think i'll risk reel-to-reel mans long 'un and see how i get on!
-if that works out i can order more from the links you've provided. most appreciated reelguy, cheers.

[Andrew_Keith]

Hi Geefunk, I recently recieved a full set of belts for the N4307/ N4308 from Colin Braddock tape recorder center in Blackpool at a cost of £18.50. They arrived at my home within twenty four hours of me sending the money. They appear to be the proper belts for the machine and work perfectly.

Kind Regards.

Andrew

[geefunk]

thanks for that Andrew, always good to know they are still available. Colin very kindly sent me diagrams of the correct ways of fitting the belts also (3 variations).
have found a chemist that still sells isopropyl alcohol which is absolutely perfect for cleaning off the old rubber. found it to be better than surgical spirit as there isn't any oil in it (which attracts the dirt). most chemists wont sell isopropyl now as they think people are going to drink it!
can you imagine...?
thanks again

[Andrew_Keith]

Hi Geefunk, It took me three days plus a lot of four letter words to get my 4307 totaly clear of gunge It had got everywhere, even under the linkages for the transport functions. Had to remove the motor to get at the pulley properly, which was very badly gunged up. I say took three days but i found the best way was to spend a few hours on it and complete a section and then go away, have a break and calm down And then go back and do another section, as i am not the most patient person, and this job is enough to try anyones patience HOWEVER disaster, i found on completion that the take-up spool clutch had also disintegrated I gave it much thought and decided to try using a circular flat rubber disc which i sandwiched between the upper and lower sections of the clutch. Result perfect The take-up spool turns with the correct amount of torque when in play mode, but slips ok when in stop or ff or rew mode. Then spent the rest of the day cleaning gunge off the door handles, and coffee mugs and even off the kettle Good luck i think you will find the end result is well worth the effort.
Kind Regards.

P.S does anyone know the voltage of the small wire ended bulb that lights up the VU meter. I have lent out my AVO and want to try and get a new lamp from maplins or the like. I guess it is either 6 or 12 volts? It is fed via a resistor from the secondary of the motor/transformer.

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by geefunk

have found a chemist that still sells isopropyl alcohol which is absolutely perfect for cleaning off the old rubber. found it to be better than surgical spirit as there isn't any oil in it (which attracts the dirt). most chemists wont sell isopropyl now as they think people are going to drink it!
can you imagine...?
thanks again

It's also widely available from electronics mail order companies, e.g. CPC sell a 400mL aerosol of it for only £1.72 + VAT. Very useful stuff.

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Keith

Hi Geefunk, It took me three days plus a lot of four letter words to get my 4307 totaly clear of gunge It had got everywhere, even under the linkages for the transport functions. Had to remove the motor to get at the pulley properly, which was very badly gunged up.

I've got a really nice early 70s Philips belt-drive turntable (GF212) which has the same problem. I found aerosol freezer spray quite useful: it turns the gunge into a hard lump, which can then be flicked off with an old Nectar/AA/Homebase card, leaving a much smaller amount of residue to be cleaned off with isopropyl alcohol.

[Andrew_Keith]

Hi Nick, Wish i had known that before, would have saved alot of cursing, it really is nasty stuff, and gets everywhere

Kind Regards.

Does anyone know if the new belt set that i got from Colin Braddock is likely to go the same way Or is it something that is unique to the original Philips belts? If the new belts are going to deteriorate, then i need to do a periodic check, so i can catch things before they go too far.

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Keith

Does anyone know if the new belt set that i got from Colin Braddock is likely to go the same way Or is it something that is unique to the original Philips belts?

Certainly, most belts will deteriorate to some extent after ~30 years. But Philips ones are notorious for turning into a sticky mess - others just seem to lose their elasticity.

Storage conditions have some effect on how long they last. I have 2 of those turntables: the one that's lived indoors and has seen daily use is still absolutely fine. The one I bought from eBay - which the buyer said had been in the loft for 15 years or more - had a belt which had gone nasty .

Nick.

[reelguy]

Hello all. I agree that Philips belts are notorious for turning to goo but usually the ones in earlier recorders are OK. I have an old EL3541 which is still going strong and it still has the original belts. However if I buy a Philips M/c made in the early 70s or so I know its going to need belts and usually a good cleanup. That mention of using Aersol freezer spray sounds like it may work so I must try that in future myself. Where do you buy it by the way? . I have used Isopropyl alchohol for years to clean the heads and guides on recorders.Cant remember where I got the info from. Re The belts bought from Colin Braddock and how long they may last it .. Depends on what they are made from.. Some Philips belts where for sale on Ebay this week but may have gone now.. You may find as you are out and about that you are unconsciously scouring the landscape for odd rubber belts and other spare bits. Reelguy.

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by reelguy

That mention of using Aersol freezer spray sounds like it may work so I must try that in future myself. Where do you buy it by the way?

I use CPCs own brand, Order code SA01094 @ £5.84 +VAT for a large (400mL) aerosol. It's much cheaper than Electrolube's or even Servisol's.

Nick.

[reelguy]

Hi Nick, I shall certainly give the Aerosl freezer spray a try.. thanks again . reelguy

[Stewart]

Another thing to try use when removing the gunge of Philips belts is swarfega:

Wipe away the worst of the mess with 3 inch squares of old rags that you can drop straight in a lined bin by your side, then apply some swarfega on an old toothbush. After a just a few momments the goo dissolves away and you can wipe away the swarfega with another rag. A final single wipe with a little solvent / IPA will finish the job. You still need to wear old clothes, but try it - it really does work. I only found this out recently - and had a whole machine that had "lost" three belts, one in the speed change mechanism, its take up clutch and its pause brake - all cleaned up in just an hour or so. When I think of all the Philips machines I've struggled with - ruining clothes and carpets along the way....

I've not had problems with any Philips rubber on machines prior to about 1958. (which doesn't leave many safe models). From the AG8108 onward the rot sets in - and the rubber can turn at any time. I first encountered the problem in 1980 with a 60's machine (that was the one that ruined a school friends carpet - a heady lesson I failed to learn). I've also seen one turn in use: A machine that had seemingly good original rubber got fed up when asked to rewind loads of tapes I was sorting through:As the drive got warm with all the friction the rubber just turned to liquid.

Finally, if you are "lucky" enough to have any original Philips belts and idlers DON'T store them uncovered with any other belts you might have. I was kindly given some a few years back and stored them away safely for future use with all my other belts. I'm sure you can guess what I found when I next needed a belt. Doh!

Stewart

[reel-to-reel-man]

These Philips machines with they belts of goo come up very often for me, the swarfega trick sounds like a good alternative to IPA, 2 roles of kitchen cloths and a screwdriver.

The one good thing though is that I found you can buy rubber cord from CPC though the part number escapes me. Using a cutting block made for the job, I measure the length of belt I need then make the belt out of the rubber cord, cutting the two ends of the cord at 45 degree before gluing them together with superglue. To save the belts sounding bad when in use, after 1 minuet I sand the clued part with 240 grit taking away the excess glue.

I have done this on many Philips machines and though the original belts are square the round rubber cord does the same job, its so much cheaper than tracking the belts down.

[Gavtech]

Hello Folks. This is my first posting.

I have acquired a 4307 and have encountered the usual belt problem.
The electronics appear ok. Sound is produced from manual tape dragging.

{ I have a scan of the circuit available if anyone requires it incidentally}

In researching belt suppliers I have found that Cricklewood Electronics have a wide range { four pages worth } at very decent prices: 25p and 50p respectively for the two sizes of belt required.

see Belts at Cricklewood Electronics

I measured the length of the main flywheel belt as 270 mm { i.e. 86 mm diameter } and the lighter guage tape counter belt as 300 mm long { i.e. 95 mm diameter}
The belts are so cheap I intend to get a few around each size .
I will report back when they are obtained as to which appears to work best.

I intend using a 2mm belt for flywheel and a 1.2 mm belt for the counter.

Nobody has mentioned what the actual specified size should be. Does anyone know?

Regards to all

Gavin

[Nickthedentist]

Originally Posted by Gavtech

The belts are so cheap I intend to get a few around each size .

Welcome, Gavin!

Yes, that's good thinking. It's usually impossible to measure-up for a new belt very accurately, so having a selection of sizes to try is the easiest way of achieving a good fit. And you can add the rejected ones to your "junk box", ready for when another machine comes your way.

CPC in Preston also have an excellent selection of belts, by the way.

Nick.

[Gavtech]

Does anyone know if the new belt set that i got from Colin Braddock is likely to go the same way Or is it something that is unique to the original Philips belts? If the new belts are going to deteriorate, then i need to do a periodic check, so i can catch things before they go too far.

One would hope that things have improved , but unless you knew where and how and when the belts were sourced or manufactured ( ... and how could you reasonably know)... it would be impossible to predict.

On the issue of this facet of materials science... many of you might be interested to follow this tale that beset certain vintages of Ferrograph machines:
Ferrograph - The Neoprene Problem

Gavin

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist

Welcome, Gavin!

Yes, that's good thinking. It's usually impossible to measure-up for a new belt very accurately, so having a selection of sizes to try is the easiest way of achieving a good fit. And you can add the rejected ones to your "junk box", ready for when another machine comes your way.

CPC in Preston also have an excellent selection of belts, by the way.

Nick.

Hi Nick - Thanks for your welcome.

I actually boycott CPC ... because they boycott me! ... I don't know why but despite repeated emails to them, over the years, in a bid to seek to buy, they have always failed to respond...Remarkable for a trading company... I think it's personal!

If you speak to them - Please put in a good word.

Gavin