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Old 14th Aug 2022, 6:24 am   #21
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Found the printing method.
At the time and up until the 1940 they would have used Lithography, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithografie
Invented by Alois Sennefelder in 1798 it was the main printing process for a hundred and fifty years until replaced by Offset printing.
It used the same basic method of oil repels water only instead of a metal printing plate they used a stone. There also was a branch of Lithography called "Chromolithography" and that is what they used to mass print labels.
There is a artistic Lithograph printers in Munich, where they print reproductions on original machines with original stones. It is near Stachus, center of Munich and I have always wanted to visit this place as it should be interesting.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 2:11 pm   #22
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

I used a water slide transfer( two actually, stuck over one another as one wasn’t opaque enough) to reproduce a damaged dial on a DAC10 some years ago. The owner hasn’t got back to me reporting any problems, so I can only assume all OK. I had mine done on a laser printer at one of those copy shops.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 4:34 pm   #23
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post
I used a water slide transfer( two actually, stuck over one another as one wasn’t opaque enough) to reproduce a damaged dial on a DAC10 some years ago. The owner hasn’t got back to me reporting any problems, so I can only assume all OK. I had mine done on a laser printer at one of those copy shops.
Did you use a magnifier to get it exactly in position?
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 12:02 am   #24
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

I have made thousands of PCB's, sometimes with 5 separate sheets that must "fit " together. I use alignment marks on all corners a few mm away from the wanted artwork, so that when the board is trimmed they are removed. In the production process we used German made Erwin Sick optical sensors to detect the alignment marks and registerd the negatives ( actually positives back in those days ) so that the boards in a production line were automatically aligned and correct. I would think it would be easy to add them to any artwork so alignment isnt a problem. My "favorites " were standard cross hairs, but most PC related PCB generators usually have a selection.
I "made " the cross hairs as all my artwork was tapes and pads with red and green dropout tapes. Ok Ok it was a long time ago. The theory is just as relevant today though.

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Old 15th Aug 2022, 5:06 am   #25
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

That is real old school repro work, Long may it Last.
I always thought Sick AG made things like thermal sensors
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 6:47 am   #26
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Perhaps they do Slammer. I dont know anymore.
In the far distant past, when the Flintstones lived next door to me, I maintained a web printing machine of seven colours AND a varnish. ONE speed controller, which was the BIGGEST thyristor ( SCR in today speak ) and all registration was, once again, was by Erwin Sick. At full speed ( around 100 MPH ) it could print one ton of paper in about eight minutes. I never knew the length of a roll of paper, but if I stood beside it, it was still several feet taller than I. ( I am a short arse at about 5' 9" ) The paper was probably about 65 or 70 GSM.
Because of the speed and potential danger Erwin Sick also made the sensors ( also optical ) that slammed the brakes on, if somebody approached too closely, and nobody ever got chopped up by the presses. ( Rotary presses very similar to a newpaper press.)
Erwin Sick also made the guillotine safety sensors so that when guillotining paper ( a whole ream at a time ), you couldnt cut your hands off.

The printing machine made the labels for clothes washing power that was later laminated to the cardboard.

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Old 15th Aug 2022, 7:35 am   #27
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Sick sensors, now I remember. The optical "walls" around printing presses. Compulsory on government presses, they are rarely seen on "private" presses but should be. It was Willam Bullock who improved the web press and got himself pressed to death by his own press. Ironic if you think about it.
7C and a varnish with one controller, now that is asking for trouble.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 9:15 am   #28
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post
I used a water slide transfer( two actually, stuck over one another as one wasn’t opaque enough) to reproduce a damaged dial on a DAC10 some years ago. The owner hasn’t got back to me reporting any problems, so I can only assume all OK. I had mine done on a laser printer at one of those copy shops.
You did really well to manage that Tim.

The dial isn't too dissimilar to the DAC90A except that the DAC10 has the push-button windows in addition to station names.

Some yeas ago, I spent a lot of time experimenting with creating reverse printed decals on clear inkjet paper for the various designs of the DAC90A to apply to the rear of the glass. Initially, when on the backing paper the decals looked promising, but as Tim discovered, when applied to the glass, the colours are far too insipid to be useful. I did the obvious thing - waiting till the decal had dried, then attempted to apply second decal to achieve a better level of colour density. However, I found it impossible to get the second decal to register with the first one at all points of the graphics.

There are two challenges in using decals:

Firstly, creating the artwork and printing the decal, and until we've managed to do that, we're not going to get to the second stage - applying it.

Applying the decals is an acquired skill, best learnt with small decals such as set-top logos before moving on to larger decals such as dials. I'd reiterate that because they're called 'waterslide' that suggests that to apply them you slide them off the backing paper. If you do that, they will wrinkle up. You need to 'hover' the decal above is to be fixed, and carefully slide the backing paper from beneath the decal as you smooth it down. If you wet the surface to which the decal is to be applied, you can gently adjust the positing before smoothing the decal down, removing any bubbles as you do.

It's really important - particularly with large decals such as an oblong dial - to make sure that before you attempt to slide away the backing paper, that the decal will slide really easily on the backing paper, otherwise, the decal will stretch slightly as the backing paper is removed. That doesn't matter so much on a single decal, but it matters a great deal when we are trying to exactly register a second decal over the first one.

To put this into perspective, a DAC90A dial is approximately 16cms x 7 cms. (6.5" x 2.75"). There are 25 station names - 8 LW, 17 MW, and 16 wavelengths marked in numerals, together with other graphics. In all, I would estimate perhaps 200 or more characters. Some of the characters are no more than 1mm wide. If the second decal is just 1mm out of register with the first one, that will be immediately apparent as a double image. To put that into perspective on a 16cm long dial, a 1mm error equates to 0.625%.

Because I had little success doesn't mean that others wont, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from experimentation.

If decal paper is bought in packs of ten sheets, its presently £14.99. Three DAC90A or similar sized dials will fit onto one sheet. Apart from the above challenges, what we're up against is that the original dials were screen printed, and few restorers of sets with little residual value are going to want to pay the £15.00 or so which screen printed dials would cost. (Heck, they wouldn't pay a tenner for Neil's CNC replica back panels, or for 3-D printed Robert's radio knobs).

A couple of the DAC90A dial scans I tried are attached below.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 9:53 am   #29
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

I did the whole scale. The printing on the old scale was very poor so I removed it completely and thoroughly cleaned the glass. It was quite easy to flip the image and get several copies made exactly the same size as the glass/old one. Applying one over the other wasn’t difficult. I think I applied the first one , then it was simply a matter of aligning the second one over the top so the scale was” in focus”, for want of a better term.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 11:01 am   #30
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
If decal paper is bought in packs of ten sheets, its presently £14.99. Three DAC90A or similar sized dials will fit onto one sheet. Apart from the above challenges, what we're up against is that the original dials were screen printed, and few restorers of sets with little residual value are going to want to pay the £15.00 or so which screen printed dials would cost. (Heck, they wouldn't pay a tenner for Neil's CNC replica back panels, or for 3-D printed Robert's radio knobs).

A couple of the DAC90A dial scans I tried are attached below.
I don't think screen printing would have been done for things like this, the resolution is simply too low, maybe not nowadays, but at the time you could expect 50 to 80 lpi. I think that they would have done and still do pad printing for this kind of work.
Pad printing is not too expensive, although multi coloured prints would put the price up, and then there is the artwork to consider.
Personally I would go to a reprostudio that still uses film and have a negative film made then stick it to the glass.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 12:54 pm   #31
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

The finished radio can be seen in “ recent repairs” on Paul Stenning’s other site. Unfortunately the photo’s of the finished tuning scale aren’t very good( my fault!) so you’ll have to take my word for it that it looked OK. Since about half the original scale was missing or illegible, pretty much anything would have been an improvement

https://www.vintage-radio.com/recent...ush-dac10.html
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 1:52 pm   #32
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post
I did the whole scale. The printing on the old scale was very poor so I removed it completely and thoroughly cleaned the glass. It was quite easy to flip the image and get several copies made exactly the same size as the glass/old one. Applying one over the other wasn’t difficult. I think I applied the first one , then it was simply a matter of aligning the second one over the top so the scale was” in focus”, for want of a better term.
Thanks for reading Tim, and for your comments.

Just to add for the avoidance of doubt, I used new glass cut to size in my experiments - I didn't try to tidy up or re-use an existing dial. I didn't have a problem with the artwork, flipping the image or in printing & applying the decals. The only problem was in getting the second decal to register accurately all all points with the first decal, which - try as I might - I wasn't able to achieve.

Great news that you managed to overcome that issue, which hopefully will encourage others to have a go.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 1:55 pm   #33
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post
I used a water slide transfer( two actually, stuck over one another as one wasn’t opaque enough) to reproduce a damaged dial on a DAC10 some years ago. The owner hasn’t got back to me reporting any problems, so I can only assume all OK. I had mine done on a laser printer at one of those copy shops.
You did really well to manage that Tim.

The dial isn't too dissimilar to the DAC90A except that the DAC10 has the push-button windows in addition to station names.

Some yeas ago, I spent a lot of time experimenting with creating reverse printed decals on clear inkjet paper for the various designs of the DAC90A to apply to the rear of the glass. Initially, when on the backing paper the decals looked promising, but as Tim discovered, when applied to the glass, the colours are far too insipid to be useful. I did the obvious thing - waiting till the decal had dried, then attempted to apply second decal to achieve a better level of colour density. However, I found it impossible to get the second decal to register with the first one at all points of the graphics.

There are two challenges in using decals:

Firstly, creating the artwork and printing the decal, and until we've managed to do that, we're not going to get to the second stage - applying it.

Applying the decals is an acquired skill, best learnt with small decals such as set-top logos before moving on to larger decals such as dials. I'd reiterate that because they're called 'waterslide' that suggests that to apply them you slide them off the backing paper. If you do that, they will wrinkle up. You need to 'hover' the decal above is to be fixed, and carefully slide the backing paper from beneath the decal as you smooth it down. If you wet the surface to which the decal is to be applied, you can gently adjust the positing before smoothing the decal down, removing any bubbles as you do.

It's really important - particularly with large decals such as an oblong dial - to make sure that before you attempt to slide away the backing paper, that the decal will slide really easily on the backing paper, otherwise, the decal will stretch slightly as the backing paper is removed. That doesn't matter so much on a single decal, but it matters a great deal when we are trying to exactly register a second decal over the first one.

To put this into perspective, a DAC90A dial is approximately 16cms x 7 cms. (6.5" x 2.75"). There are 25 station names - 8 LW, 17 MW, and 16 wavelengths marked in numerals, together with other graphics. In all, I would estimate perhaps 200 or more characters. Some of the characters are no more than 1mm wide. If the second decal is just 1mm out of register with the first one, that will be immediately apparent as a double image. To put that into perspective on a 16cm long dial, a 1mm error equates to 0.625%.

Because I had little success doesn't mean that others wont, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from experimentation.

If decal paper is bought in packs of ten sheets, its presently £14.99. Three DAC90A or similar sized dials will fit onto one sheet. Apart from the above challenges, what we're up against is that the original dials were screen printed, and few restorers of sets with little residual value are going to want to pay the £15.00 or so which screen printed dials would cost. (Heck, they wouldn't pay a tenner for Neil's CNC replica back panels, or for 3-D printed Robert's radio knobs).

A couple of the DAC90A dial scans I tried are attached below.
Had some fun making a new lineart of the dial this afternoon.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 1:59 pm   #34
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

I think you've found your vocation Slammer!
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 9:54 pm   #35
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Talking photography and using negative film. I used get my PCB designs photographed by the local newspaper office, who had a horizontal camera so that I had jet black and perfectly clear negs to use with positive photoresist. A few years ago I wanted to get some more negs done and went back to the newpaper office and asked for the same thing as last time. Which was shrink by 50% and print on slow film. Oh, we dont have the camera anymore, or the printing press. WHAT ? I asked. Its all at the dump, they replied. When I got up off the floor they told me that the paper had been bought by the one and only company that prints EVERY Australian newspaper. I dont do PCB's like that anymore.

Printing negs with my printer is just not the same as a camera and film.

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Old 16th Aug 2022, 5:21 am   #36
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Default Re: Waterslide Decals

Look for a Flexographic printer, a lot of them have changed to CTP (computer to plate) but a lot still have CTF (computer to ´negative´ film) You could also get what you need at a printshop with high powered inkjet printers. 1440ppi on foil should give you more than enough density.
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