Old reel to reel speakers - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Goodizzy · 26th Dec 2016, 9:05 pm

I have several 3 ohm elliptical speakers by the likes of Goodmans, Fane, Celestion, etc. sitting on my speaker shelf here. They are all pulls from Brennell, Ferrograph, Vortexion, etc. Tape machines from the 50s and 60s.

Some of the better ones sound particularly good in the midrange, with low power SE valve amps. (As I imagine they should since thats what drove most of them!)

It got me to thinking of trying to use some of these speakers, along with woofer/tweeter to build some decent workshop speakers for my stereo Mullard 3-3.

What are people's experiences and thoughts about these elliptical speakers? I haven't found too much information about them on the internet aside from the larger, more venerable EMI drivers. (I have a pair of these and love the sound!)

Thanks

paulsherwin · 26th Dec 2016, 9:59 pm

Generally speaking, these speakers were not intended for hifi use. There's no reason why you shouldn't put a couple of them in boxes and try them out, but any decent hifi speaker from any era is likely to sound better. You could use them as mids in a more complex setup, but they won't sound very linear.

I doubt if they sound better or worse than similar basic US made speakers of the same era.

Diabolical Artificer · 27th Dec 2016, 7:01 am

They'll sound better than they actually are because you built them. Paul's right they're hardly hifi but you'll learn something by building them and have fun.

Getting the box right right might be tricky, especially if you use your speaker's as mids and chuck in a woofer and tweeter. There's a thread here - https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=124872 which cover's speaker design and cover's some of the aspect's and question's that come up.

The simple approach may be better, bung em in a box with a tweeter, use a cap to roll off the high's, job done.

Andy.

crackle · 27th Dec 2016, 8:35 am

I have always found that elliptical speakers sound better in a transistor radio than a round one of similar size. I dont know why this is. But if you are making a pair of cheap and cheerful workshop speakers then elliptical speakers would be a good choice in my view.

Mike

stevehertz · 27th Dec 2016, 9:18 am

I agree with Paul. They may 'seem' to sound good in isolation, but they're unlikely to set the audio world afire even if you spend ages tuning an enclosure and crossover. Nice thought, and if you've got the time, why not? But results-wise, I think you would be wasting your time. Just my opinion.

Hartley118 · 27th Dec 2016, 9:21 am

You're right Goodizzy: some speakers like you describe can be the basis for some interesting enclosure experiments. It can be rewarding to achieve results from a cheap speaker beyond normal expectations. Power handling will be limited to a few watts, though their lightweight cones can yield high efficiency.

One of the best-known examples of maximizing results from a cheap elliptical speaker was a design by Peter Baxandall (yes, the actual tone control man!) published in Wireless World in 1960 - see http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless...oudspeaker.pdf

In addition to a closed-box cabinet design, the article describes a carefully designed LCR equalizer to level out the frequency response. An alternative approach today would of course be judicious use of a graphic equalizer, preferably third-octave.

If you have a high quality speaker for comparison, it can be interesting to carry out A/B subjective testing between your equalized cheap speaker and the high quality one. Random noise can be helpful in addition to a music source. Whilst the extremes of the audio range will be missing, you may be able to get a surprisingly close comparison in the mid-range.

Martin

emeritus · 27th Dec 2016, 9:38 am

In the 1960's we had a regular supply of speakers from the old TVs and radios that our neighbour used to break up for the scrap metal, and dad used to use them to make extension speakers for the relative's transistor radios. It was surprising how good even a cheap Hong Kong pocket radio could sound when played through a larger speaker.

unitaudio · 27th Dec 2016, 1:51 pm

In the early 80's, I bought four speakers from Mazel radio in Manchester. 8" x 3", probably rated 3 to 5 watts at 3 ohms. They were 50p each so I thought they'd be suitable for experimentation.

In the school woodwork shop I built a pair of cabinets to house 2 speakers each, wired in series. They sounded surprisingly good, there was even a slight semblance of bass. Only slight, mind. Sold them to my mate for his bedroom system.

They weren't hi fi by any means but they weren't unpleasant either. They didn't do anything incredible but what they did do, they did well enough not to draw unfavourable attention to themselves. For a total outlay of £2, they were better than they had any right to be! My friend gave me a fiver for them so we were both happy.

Regards,
Paul

Goodizzy · 27th Dec 2016, 3:33 pm

Well that's ashame about the nonlinear response, but that doesn't surprise me. I suppose using them in any 2-3 way speaker would be a fool's errand.

Maybe I'll diddle with the router and scrap ply and try some sort of open baffle. I could suspend it from the ceiling or something!

I appreciate the feedback, there's not really anyone around here that knows anything about these types of speakers.

unitaudio · 27th Dec 2016, 4:25 pm

I knew the speakers I built weren't going to be spectacular but I just wanted to know what they could do. It was completely unscientific (I guessed dimensions which "looked about right") and just went for it. They didn't shock with their quality but I was glad I tried.

Combining such speakers with a woofer and tweeter is always going to be tricky for the reasons mentioned but using them on their own in cabinets is easy enough. There's little point in being too precise with dimensions etc. because it won't make that much difference. I went for sealed enclosures for simplicity and my greatest concern was airtightness and solidity.

Regards,
Paul

Diabolical Artificer · 28th Dec 2016, 1:11 pm

Isn't there a way to tune speakers as used on certain old radio's or TV? Mike cathovisor told me about it. Some radio or other used a baffle that had a slot in it, the speaker sat behind this slot, it improved bass a hell of a lot he said. The slot I think is about 1/2" wide probably the length of the speaker. With a router and some scrap wood you could run a few experiments.

Can't for the life of me remember the radio/s, Philips maybe?

Andy.

unitaudio · 28th Dec 2016, 2:40 pm

That would be an interesting thing to experiment with. Some BBC monitors had the bass unit behind a slot so there's obviously something to it. Easier than an elliptical baffle cut-out too!

Regards,
Paul

Hartley118 · 28th Dec 2016, 3:00 pm

AFAIR, interposing a vertical slot in front of the speaker was claimed to improve high frequency distribution in the horizontal plane because it reduced the effective width of the sound source.

I was always a bit worried though about coloration from resonances in the cavity created in front of the speaker cone behind the slot.

Martin

unitaudio · 28th Dec 2016, 3:07 pm

Hello Martin. I've often wondered about the cavity in front of the cone aggravating resonances. I imagine it could end up sounding a bit boxy. I suppose if I were to try it, it would mean several attempts before giving it up as a bad job!

Regards,
Paul

26th Dec 2016, 9:05 pm	#1
Goodizzy Pentode Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Lynchburg, Central Virginia, USA. Posts: 137	Old reel to reel speakers I have several 3 ohm elliptical speakers by the likes of Goodmans, Fane, Celestion, etc. sitting on my speaker shelf here. They are all pulls from Brennell, Ferrograph, Vortexion, etc. Tape machines from the 50s and 60s. Some of the better ones sound particularly good in the midrange, with low power SE valve amps. (As I imagine they should since thats what drove most of them!) It got me to thinking of trying to use some of these speakers, along with woofer/tweeter to build some decent workshop speakers for my stereo Mullard 3-3. What are people's experiences and thoughts about these elliptical speakers? I haven't found too much information about them on the internet aside from the larger, more venerable EMI drivers. (I have a pair of these and love the sound!) Thanks

26th Dec 2016, 9:59 pm	#2
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,947	Re: Old reel to reel speakers Generally speaking, these speakers were not intended for hifi use. There's no reason why you shouldn't put a couple of them in boxes and try them out, but any decent hifi speaker from any era is likely to sound better. You could use them as mids in a more complex setup, but they won't sound very linear. I doubt if they sound better or worse than similar basic US made speakers of the same era.

27th Dec 2016, 7:01 am	#3
Diabolical Artificer Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK. Posts: 7,662	Re: Old reel to reel speakers They'll sound better than they actually are because you built them. Paul's right they're hardly hifi but you'll learn something by building them and have fun. Getting the box right right might be tricky, especially if you use your speaker's as mids and chuck in a woofer and tweeter. There's a thread here - https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=124872 which cover's speaker design and cover's some of the aspect's and question's that come up. The simple approach may be better, bung em in a box with a tweeter, use a cap to roll off the high's, job done. Andy. __________________ Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.

27th Dec 2016, 8:35 am	#4
crackle Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Basildon, Essex, UK. Posts: 4,100	Re: Old reel to reel speakers I have always found that elliptical speakers sound better in a transistor radio than a round one of similar size. I dont know why this is. But if you are making a pair of cheap and cheerful workshop speakers then elliptical speakers would be a good choice in my view. Mike

27th Dec 2016, 9:18 am	#5
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,831	Re: Old reel to reel speakers I agree with Paul. They may 'seem' to sound good in isolation, but they're unlikely to set the audio world afire even if you spend ages tuning an enclosure and crossover. Nice thought, and if you've got the time, why not? But results-wise, I think you would be wasting your time. Just my opinion. __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

27th Dec 2016, 9:21 am	#6
Hartley118 Nonode Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK. Posts: 2,198	Re: Old reel to reel speakers You're right Goodizzy: some speakers like you describe can be the basis for some interesting enclosure experiments. It can be rewarding to achieve results from a cheap speaker beyond normal expectations. Power handling will be limited to a few watts, though their lightweight cones can yield high efficiency. One of the best-known examples of maximizing results from a cheap elliptical speaker was a design by Peter Baxandall (yes, the actual tone control man!) published in Wireless World in 1960 - see http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless...oudspeaker.pdf In addition to a closed-box cabinet design, the article describes a carefully designed LCR equalizer to level out the frequency response. An alternative approach today would of course be judicious use of a graphic equalizer, preferably third-octave. If you have a high quality speaker for comparison, it can be interesting to carry out A/B subjective testing between your equalized cheap speaker and the high quality one. Random noise can be helpful in addition to a music source. Whilst the extremes of the audio range will be missing, you may be able to get a surprisingly close comparison in the mid-range. Martin __________________ BVWS Member

27th Dec 2016, 9:38 am	#7
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,339	Re: Old reel to reel speakers In the 1960's we had a regular supply of speakers from the old TVs and radios that our neighbour used to break up for the scrap metal, and dad used to use them to make extension speakers for the relative's transistor radios. It was surprising how good even a cheap Hong Kong pocket radio could sound when played through a larger speaker.

27th Dec 2016, 1:51 pm	#8
unitaudio Heptode Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 862	Re: Old reel to reel speakers In the early 80's, I bought four speakers from Mazel radio in Manchester. 8" x 3", probably rated 3 to 5 watts at 3 ohms. They were 50p each so I thought they'd be suitable for experimentation. In the school woodwork shop I built a pair of cabinets to house 2 speakers each, wired in series. They sounded surprisingly good, there was even a slight semblance of bass. Only slight, mind. Sold them to my mate for his bedroom system. They weren't hi fi by any means but they weren't unpleasant either. They didn't do anything incredible but what they did do, they did well enough not to draw unfavourable attention to themselves. For a total outlay of £2, they were better than they had any right to be! My friend gave me a fiver for them so we were both happy. Regards, Paul __________________ ...No, it's not supposed to pick up the World Service, it's not a radio!

27th Dec 2016, 3:33 pm	#9
Goodizzy Pentode Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Lynchburg, Central Virginia, USA. Posts: 137	Re: Old reel to reel speakers Well that's ashame about the nonlinear response, but that doesn't surprise me. I suppose using them in any 2-3 way speaker would be a fool's errand. Maybe I'll diddle with the router and scrap ply and try some sort of open baffle. I could suspend it from the ceiling or something! I appreciate the feedback, there's not really anyone around here that knows anything about these types of speakers.

27th Dec 2016, 4:25 pm	#10
unitaudio Heptode Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 862	Re: Old reel to reel speakers I knew the speakers I built weren't going to be spectacular but I just wanted to know what they could do. It was completely unscientific (I guessed dimensions which "looked about right") and just went for it. They didn't shock with their quality but I was glad I tried. Combining such speakers with a woofer and tweeter is always going to be tricky for the reasons mentioned but using them on their own in cabinets is easy enough. There's little point in being too precise with dimensions etc. because it won't make that much difference. I went for sealed enclosures for simplicity and my greatest concern was airtightness and solidity. Regards, Paul __________________ ...No, it's not supposed to pick up the World Service, it's not a radio!

28th Dec 2016, 1:11 pm	#11
Diabolical Artificer Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK. Posts: 7,662	Re: Old reel to reel speakers Isn't there a way to tune speakers as used on certain old radio's or TV? Mike cathovisor told me about it. Some radio or other used a baffle that had a slot in it, the speaker sat behind this slot, it improved bass a hell of a lot he said. The slot I think is about 1/2" wide probably the length of the speaker. With a router and some scrap wood you could run a few experiments. Can't for the life of me remember the radio/s, Philips maybe? Andy. __________________ Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.

28th Dec 2016, 2:40 pm	#12
unitaudio Heptode Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 862	Re: Old reel to reel speakers That would be an interesting thing to experiment with. Some BBC monitors had the bass unit behind a slot so there's obviously something to it. Easier than an elliptical baffle cut-out too! Regards, Paul __________________ ...No, it's not supposed to pick up the World Service, it's not a radio!

28th Dec 2016, 3:00 pm	#13
Hartley118 Nonode Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK. Posts: 2,198	Re: Old reel to reel speakers AFAIR, interposing a vertical slot in front of the speaker was claimed to improve high frequency distribution in the horizontal plane because it reduced the effective width of the sound source. I was always a bit worried though about coloration from resonances in the cavity created in front of the speaker cone behind the slot. Martin __________________ BVWS Member

28th Dec 2016, 3:07 pm	#14
unitaudio Heptode Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Manchester, UK. Posts: 862	Re: Old reel to reel speakers Hello Martin. I've often wondered about the cavity in front of the cone aggravating resonances. I imagine it could end up sounding a bit boxy. I suppose if I were to try it, it would mean several attempts before giving it up as a bad job! Regards, Paul __________________ ...No, it's not supposed to pick up the World Service, it's not a radio!