Sheds, damp and test equipment

[stevehertz]

I have recently linked the electricity supply from my first Lidget building to a recently built second one using armoured cable and cloned the distribution/security panel as well.

[WaveyDipole]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

Any chance of swapping garages with the one nearest your back fence?

David

I wish! The neighbour has a convenient side entrance into this garage directly from her garden and uses it as a shed so is unlikely to give that convenience up. Swapping plots would have to be agreed with the council as well I think.

BTW, power to the shed is not a problem and has already been sorted for some time. I have an IP67 dual socket on the external conservatory wall with a 13 amp cable running from it inside the house and terminated with an RCD plug which I then plug into a convenient internal wall socket when I want to use the presssure washer or tools on the workbench outside. An armoured cable is also wired into this socket and supplies the shed, but the whole arrangement is not permanently wired into the household wiring.

In the spirit of keeping my carbon footprint low, I had thought about solar panels on the roof of the garage supplying power to batteries stored inside, but I'm not sure how practical (or costly) such a solution would be. The garage roof slopes to west so not ideal for solar panels which I believe should slope to the south. The adjacent tall hedge does not help either!

I think the garage idea is a no-go except perhaps for occasional workshop use with the long extension rolled out, although if I could solve the damp problem, then that would be useful even if it continues to be used only for storage.

There is enough feedback here to strongly suggest that the best option is to self-build a wooden shed. The advantage is it is on my property and I can also then plan a more permanent wiring solution, with appropriate part P approval of course!

[dave walsh]

It might be worth your while sorting the damp garage regardless if you can get rid of the bushes and the embankment. A sort of temporary Coffer Dam around it [bricks] and/or a shallow trench filled with hard core could be an interesting experiment. Perhaps you could explain to any [amenable] neighbours that you want to upgrade the garage to a shed, like the lady on the end, but with lighting [improving security for everyone] before it deteriorates too far.
You can only ask Are they are willing to help in any way?
Or you could also imply that you will need to house a car in there soon-a shocking idea I know!

Dave

[AC/HL]

Possibly not relevant, but some years ago I rented a garage on a communal plot. Not Council owned though. Some time later I had to give it up as the lease only allowed it's use as a garage, nothing else.

[evingar]

Originally Posted by avocollector

I also have a 3.3kw invertor petrol generator for use when the mains goes out in the house. While they are not horribly noisy, you will need a fair amount of land around the house to avoid disturbing the neighbours if you want one for your shed. We have about 3/4 of an acre around our place down the side of a hill and nothing near the boundaries on 3 sides and you can just barely hear it on the one side where people are near - often drowned out by the motorway noise from about 2kms away. I really don't think you could use such a generator in normal suburban housing without much upset.

This is why I built a brick hut for my generator, with a concrete roof. Deadens the sound very well. I also chose a Honda EU 22i inverter generator :-
https://www.honda.co.uk/industrial/p.../overview.html
It's the quietest generator I have come across.

I previously had a small 4KW diesel generator that was incredibly noisy, such you had to wear ear muffs to approach it. Not at all ideal for a residential location but mine is only used as a standby. Of course we haven't lost power since I installed it !

[G6Tanuki]

If I *owned* such a garage, my first thing would be to 'tank' it - get the walls and floors drilled/injected with silicone waterproofing and similar treatments applied to the inner surfaces of the walls.

That was what I had to do on inheriting a 'shared-with-the-county-council' communications/data installation which was recessed into a Cumbrian hillside [and where when it rained we had water squirting from a brick-fissure a couple of feet up from the back of a rather-important PDP11/70]

"Tanking" is not cheap, but if it's done by a competent professional it'll totally deal with groundwater issues - at least until you've got a Metre or so of water outside!

[avocollector]

Originally Posted by evingar

This is why I built a brick hut for my generator, with a concrete roof. Deadens the sound very well. I also chose a Honda EU 22i inverter generator :-
https://www.honda.co.uk/industrial/p.../overview.html
It's the quietest generator I have come across.

I previously had a small 4KW diesel generator that was incredibly noisy, such you had to wear ear muffs to approach it. Not at all ideal for a residential location but mine is only used as a standby. Of course we haven't lost power since I installed it !

Yep same experience with mine - only time it runs is for an hour every fortnight to make sure the electric start etc is all OK. Funny how when you take precautions what used to happen regularly becomes a 1 in a 100 year event eh?

[avocollector]

Just as an additional thought how about using an electric kanga to take up some of the concrete floor of the garage, installing a subfloor drain (if you have guttering and a downpipe on the garage you could tap into that waste water drain), restoring the floor and putting down a membrane damp barrier and say 2 inches of concrete on top? Should stop the rising problem.

Alternatively if your garage it big enough how about a small caravan inside it?? would solve all the problems in one fell swoop if you could get a used one cheap enough.

[WaveyDipole]

Originally Posted by AC/HL

Possibly not relevant, but some years ago I rented a garage on a communal plot. Not Council owned though. Some time later I had to give it up as the lease only allowed it's use as a garage, nothing else.

Possibly very relevant. I think it is designated as a parking plot and I am not allowed to erect a permanent structure (ie. brick building) on it. Not sure whether a shed/workshop would be construed as being a permanent structure but one could perhaps become unstuck if someone decides to make an issue of it with the council which I guess is another reason for not setting up anything permanent there.

Originally Posted by avocollector

Just as an additional thought how about using an electric kanga to take up some of the concrete floor of the garage, installing a subfloor drain (if you have guttering and a downpipe on the garage you could tap into that waste water drain), restoring the floor and putting down a membrane damp barrier and say 2 inches of concrete on top? Should stop the rising problem.

That's a no-go. The concrete base was put down by the council. I am not allowed to touch it. I can use it as a parking space or erect a garage of a non-permanent construction (i.e. not brick, but pre-fab OK) on it but nothing else. I think the chances of the council remediating the issue given the current state of local government finances is probably nil!

Originally Posted by avocollector

Alternatively if your garage it big enough how about a small caravan inside it?? would solve all the problems in one fell swoop if you could get a used one cheap enough.

That's certainly a novel idea but the garage unfortunately is not big enough, particularly when it comes to in height to get one in.

[stuarth]

For the electricity to your outbuilding, you need to carefully consider the earthing arrangement, particularly is your property is TN-C-S, and/or if there is an extraneous conductive part in your outbuilding such as a metal frame, a water tap or an earth for an aerial system. There is a safety requirement for equipotential bonding, and some installations need substantial earth wires (10mm2 or more) back to the house earth.

Just exporting the earth from your house to the outbuilding may not be the best solution. Surprisingly, it may be better to make your outbuilding a TT system fed from an RCD, with all the earths in the outbuilding the bonded together, and not have any access to the house earth at the outbuilding.

Try googling “exporting earth connections”.

(Yes, I know all this is protecting against rare occurrences, but as the saying goes, “if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident”.)

Stuart

[Radio Wrangler]

The options seem to be narrowing down to almost zero. All that may be left is to persuade the kids to move out, or to go looking on the property market.

David

[Tim]

We used to get large desiccant packs at work, and I used to strap these to my ‘scope transformers. I have no idea if there was any benefit, as there would be no “ control” - I guess it’s rather like Elephant powder. I’m sure it didn’t do any harm though.

[dave walsh]

As David says, WD is unfortunate in that every suggested option seems to be blocked. With better neighbour relations he could perhaps run the long extension lead he already has at some lower level, around the "edges" in some way, without going overhead or over ground and breaching every electrical or Local Government Regulation along the way. My experience of LA planning etc over the last decade or so is that they don't have the staff, finance or inclination to deal with the many issues that ARE overtly urgent!

If the rules about "permanent" buildings on the plots are so stringent, I'd be inclined to comply by jacking the garage up a foot or so [supported on breeze blocks perhaps] and inserting a wooden floor [see my comments at the end of post 28*]. [The legal definition of permanent is the presence of foundations].
That's actually more the case as it is now, than it would be raised above the concrete pad with a suspended floor I don't think there would be any requirement to have actual car access so no problems there. In fact it's status as a non permanent structure would be confirmed and you are now well above the water level Also you don't have the problems that others faced, through being in a row, as there's a Caravan on one side and a hedge on the other.

Dave

[boxdoctor]

The power supply to my workshop was no problem after I had "tapped up" (local expression meaning scrounged) from some waterboard engineers working locally, about 15 metes of water pipe. This robust pipe buried about 3 feet below ground, carries a length of 2.5mm T&E and miscellaneous intercom, doorbell, and telephone lines too, from the house to the workshop. Generally, workshop equipment earthing is done to a very substantial earthing system near the workshop. All still Ok after 30 years.
Incidentally, the house system is P.M.E., and is staying that way - I prefer it. Tony.

[stuarth]

Don't forget WD has two outbuildings, a shed adjacent to the house, and a remote garage.

The shed can be powered from the house quite easily. Some thought needs to be given to earthing, although with a non-conduction floor to shed, and no extraneous earths such as water pipes at the shed end of the connection, it should be safe to export the house earth to the shed. The dampness could be reduced by a dessicant type dehumidifier, these don't freeze up, work down to near zero degrees, and provide a bit of background heating. If you choose one with suitable controls, it will only operate if the humidity is above a certain level, so will not be too expensive to use, although with the low humidity you get below zero, it won't switch on, so won't provide heating. They give damp protection, but not frost protection.

The garage would need power taken across other peoples land, a much more difficult issue, even without the wet garage floor problem. The normal way to get power to separate buildings would be a separate power connection from the grid, each with its own meter etc, but I would think that's not practical in this case, even if the power company allowed it. The garage could be used for storage provided stuff was properly packed against the damp with sealed boxes, packs of dessicant, etc.

Stuart

[PsychMan]

Depending on how much power is needed, are batteries an option? Decent sine wave inverter fed off a big lead acid battery to provide some "mains". Only issue would be carting it back into the house or shed to charge. Though you might not need a massive one if the load is light. This could possibly be used in tandem with a solar system to trickle charge it?

[Radio Wrangler]

It can be done, but it isn't fun. I worked in a lock-up garage a quarter of a mile from my flat. Power was a 12v car battery carried round to run a hand lamp and a 12v soldering iron. Most light (and all the heat) came from a Tilley lamp to reduce the lugging of batteries. It was dark, cold and damp through two Scottish winters. Only worth doing for a very special project. I was also 40 years younger!

David

[dave walsh]

I think the two outbuildings are quite well remembered [after reading 78 posts] Stuarth. Have you read them, 73 for example? As you say, powering a shed next to the house is a doddle-whether hard wired or by extension lead. It's everything else that seems to be a problem for WD!

Dave W

[usradcoll1]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

I think the two outbuildings are quite well remembered [after reading 78 posts] Stuarth. As you say, powering a shed next to the house is a doddle-whether hard wired or extension lead. It's everything else that seems to be a problem!

Dave W

Hey fellow Dave. You gave me a lot of sound advise.
First of all, what do you consider as a "Counsel House" or property?
Is the Us, I own three properties on what they consider as a Condominium, that is I own the structure, but the land it sets on is owned by someone else. At tax time, I still have to pay the property tax on the land. One is residential and two are storage or workshop space.
There is restrictions on the three properties, but most of them don't apply to me.
BTW, This thread is extremely interesting and informative.
Dave here! USradcoll1.

[G0HZU_JMR]

Apologies in advance if this suggestion is unhelpful or too obvious but always consider the 'do nothing' option.

At work we consider the 'do nothing' option for lots of engineering problems and sometimes the 'fix' is more costly or problematic than the original problem. The 'do nothing' option is sometimes the best thing.

In other words, it might be cheaper overall to accept that your stored test gear will have a shorter lifetime and you will have to pay to replace it more often.