Sheds, damp and test equipment

[Lloyd 1985]

Not sure about mice, but I have seen a hedgehog under my shed! And no, it wasn’t a Hedghog standards converter, it was the prickly creature!

Regards
Lloyd

[Refugee]

I have never seen a hedgehog do any damage. They eat slugs so they are good for the garden.
Mice are a pain but rats are extremely destructive.
When I was a teenager I once chased a rat into open space on a very cold frosty morning.
I managed to catch up with the thing and stamped on it.
Steaming hot giblets came out of it.

[dave walsh]

Wildlife aside, I'm wondering what Wavey D now makes of all this, after initiating the thread. You don't seem to say whether you are actually forced to keep everything "outside" or what inside space you might have available in your home? A possibly dodgy flooded garage on a rented plot, some distance away and with difficult mains power access seems to be a very poor option. Even if you created a perfect warm and insulated space, at your own expense, you might be subject to the lease being withdrawn and/or vandalism! Given this, how much of a [non plastic] option does the area adjacent to your home represent as an opportunity to progress in the ways suggested here?

Cheers,

Dave W

[David Simpson]

Perhaps a friendly Forum chap from the Leicester area, with knowledge of shed building matters, could pop round to WD's & have a look at the problem.
I recall from the recent thread on the floods in South Yorkshire, that some kind forum chap had made safe storage space available on high ground.
What is obvious from this & other "Shed" threads, is that cheapo B&Q type wooden or plastic garden sheds are useless for vintage radio pursuits. So any aspiring vintage enthusiasts - be warned & don't waste your money.
If you have decent T/Eq. such as an AVO VCM, or HP or Tek sig gens & scopes, etc. - then for Gods sake find somewhere inside your house to store them until damp/moisture ingress problems have been eliminated from your shed/garage/shack.
Carefully acquiring decent 2nd hand treated timber, plywood, etc. plus siting a proper dpc'd base, might be achievable at less than the cost of a CT160 for example.

Regards, David

[WaveyDipole]

Originally Posted by MotorBikeLes

WavyDipole. I made a minor boob there. I meant to write "Linn Bins", but instead put plastic boxes, without adding "Open topped".
They get condensation which sits at the bottom and corrodes anything it can.
A wooden equivalent will absorb the water which in due course evaporates from its outer surfaces.
Les.

I do have some parts in a handful of Lin Bins. So far its not been a problem, but I will bear this in mind.

Originally Posted by dave walsh

Wildlife aside, I'm wondering what Wavey D now makes of all this, after initiating the thread. You don't seem to say whether you are actually forced to keep everything "outside" or what inside space you might have available in your home? A possibly dodgy flooded garage on a rented plot, some distance away and with difficult mains power access seems to be a very poor option. Even if you created a perfect warm and insulated space, at your own expense, you might be subject to the lease being withdrawn and/or vandalism! Given this, how much of a [non plastic] option does the area adjacent to your home represent as an opportunity to progress in the ways suggested here?

Well mice aside (I've not had a problem with them so far) the amount of space I have to work with is very little, bit inside and out. The possibility of the lease being withdrawn is probably unlikely as it is a council plot (unless I fail to pay the rent on it), but is still a valid concern. Indoors I have a small "office" area with a desk the computer that I am typing this on, approx 5ft by 10ft in size. It already has a book shelf and a shelf full of games and bits in it so there is no chance of getting a workbench in there as it stands. I have a small chest of drawers which is good for storage of some bits (DMMs. Rigol scope, some cables, chargers etc. Clearing some shelf space is the best I can do, which would at least allow me to store some of the other gear in a dry place.

Regarding the shed, it sits at the side of the house in a somewhat irregular space. It takes up an 8x6 space. There is a 6x4 greenhouse next to it and some bin space. Even if it were possible, I couldn't re-locate the garage there as it would not fit. Our back has the conservatory and a small back yard. No garden. The council parking lot is behind it. The front is probably bigger than the back. There are no expansion possibilities really. If I wanted to contruct a new shed or lean-to, the existing shed and probably the greenhouse would have to come down and I would have to re-locate the bins.

In summary, there seems little opportunity to progress, except maybe to tear down the existing shed and replace it. Once the weather gets better I will see what I can do to find out where the wet in the garage is comming from but as you say this is probably a poor option anyway. Unfortunately I can't use the loft space, except for storage either as it is too shallow.

Oh, and the OTH's priority at the moment is the kitchen.... To be fair, it does need some work.

[dave walsh]

Thanks for that WD. How far is your garage exactly? What's it made of, is it "stand alone" and are their security issues generally. Lots of questions I know but I'm just interested and trying to help. I agree that if it's a council plot and council land you're lease should be relatively secure [unless they sell it off-as often happens these days]. Would theft/damage be a likely factor? I'm thinking a replacement wooden building next to the house may well be your best option BUT if your garage [just how big is it?] isn't too far, could you run in some power overhead, as I described re my place in Rammy-easily isolated from the house end! The damp floor could be dealt with etc but even if it's cost effective, the absence of a power supply is surely the deciding factor.

I had a similar situation once and found a discrete way of getting 240v into the building. I didn't ask anyone's permission as this can often be a disastrous and very stressful step to take!

Dave W

[dave walsh]

Apologies WD. I'd clearly forgotten your description of the Garage and it's location [within post 24* and just before mine at 28*]. It doesn't sound brilliant but maybe not so far away. If you were... able to clear the overhanging vegetation and the 18" embankment of soil at the rear, you might have a dryer building to upgrade for electronics.

I'd be inclined to run a cable initially. That way, if you couldn't proceed with the Workshop, there would be an outside light/power point there at least. No power-no progress!

Dave

[WaveyDipole]

A picture is worth a thousand words. The attached is the best I could get from Google maps and annotate. The garage is about 20ft (3.5 garage plot widths) or so from the back fence. It is made of pre-fabricated concrete panels, metal door, and metal roof (I think) with some kind of protective layer sprayed on. The council stipulates as part of the tenancy agreement on the plot, that the garage cannot be a permanent structure.

To get an overhead wire to it (like the neighbour next door but one has done) would mean that it would have to pass over my next door neighbours back entrance and 3 garage plots. With a tall enough post at each end and long enough cable I guess it might be possible at a push with the permission of both neighbours, but I don't fancy my chances of getting that permission from next door. The neighbour two doors away has the advantage that his back garden runs all the way along the backs of the garages so he can run his overhead wire along the boundary of his property.

I'm also not sure what the ramifications are of running an overhead mains cable over council land in any case. This is why I feel that a generator would be the most practical solution but it would have to be stored in the garage and taken out when needed to be used. There is no side door to the garage.

I'm not sure that I can even use the excuse of having an outside light, since there is a council lamp post which provides light over the car parking area not more than 3ft from my garage!

[dave walsh]

Thanks WD, that picture is very clear and helpful. There might actually be other options than overhead [eg a reel of arctic cable routed elsewhere at ground level ] but given your regulatory reservations, which I doubt your neighbours will have even give a first thought to and the relatively poor quality of the garage structure itself, this looks like a non starter
A length of cable between high posts would just be advertising and invite conflict!

It looks like you are back to replacing the plastic shed with a cosy, insulated and ventilated wooden one-particularly if you build it yourself, following the examples on here and especially if the Green House is not that vital. It can be a fraction of the cost and ten times the quality if you stick to using a pre-cut panel form of construction. Let us know if you do find a solution.

Best wishes,

Dave W

[David Simpson]

Forget running an overhead cable to the garage, WD. IET Regulations, H&S Regs, Council Regs, and last but not least - Insurance Problems, would be prohibitive. Power supplies to outside sheds etc. have generated a minefield of past Forum threads & posts.

Regards, David

[stevehertz]

Originally Posted by David Simpson

Forget running an overhead cable to the garage, WD. IET Regulations, H&S Regs, Council Regs, and last but not least - Insurance Problems, would be prohibitive. Power supplies to outside sheds etc. have generated a minefield of past Forum threads & posts.

Regards, David

I hear what you say and I'm not attempting to suggest that you're wrong as far the points you make are concerned. However, there are lots of people who hang mains cables from catenaries on short or medium runs without a problem - obviously at one's own risk regarding (again) the regs/points that you mention. Done 'properly' and with forethought it's not a particularly dangerous system. I don't presently have one myself but I have in the past, as have my family and other people that I know. It all depends on the site, situation, etc etc. Again, I don't disagree with the legality of such a system, but like many things 'electric' the regs (have to) take into account, idiots. Rightly or wrongly, if I needed to do so, within the confines of my own backyard I would consider running a mains catenary to a small shed from say a kitchen. But my 'designed' mains catenary with isolation, trip protection etc etc would be different from Joe Bloggs' unsupported flex taken directly from the back of a socket to a cheap multi-socket extension unit nailed to the wall of the shed below a rain drip. It's akin to the regs saying that mains socket wires coming down a wall must be shrouded. Even metal shrouds will not stop a nail. A lot of it is down to common sense, but again, the regs etc have to cover all avenues to stop idiots; there has to be a 'spec' that is adhered to. I get that.

[dave walsh]

I think this boils down to personal attitude and how "obvious" you may be. No one can dispute the importance of David's points but especially in the context of modern behaviour, I tend to follow Steve's thinking also. As with my Northern shed or garage office in the south the fact that it's an ancillary supply isolated at both ends means that it can be "off" most of the time. The southern set up pre-dates me living here. I've just had the garage plastic fused outlet replaced with a Garage Kit [ie Isolating Switch, RCD and MCB's]. This is more or less the same thing but in a die cast metal enclosure with a fire door-very sound! It looks as though WD may be immediately adjacent to his house anyway. He need not even hard wire anything. Just plug in at the house as and when required.

A Forum member told us about his new kitchen quite recently, installed by an [apparently approved] sub contractor, working for a major company. When he investigated... the entire kitchen power wiring appeared to terminate in a plug within a hidden socket [almost unbelieveable ]. Given the neighbour situation, I can't imagine that running a Generator at the garage would go down well at all!
I might be inclined to use that "suggestion" to gain neighbour co-operation but that's just me!
I don't mean to recommend anything directly to anyone, of course, as it's an individual's responsibility in the end.

Dave

Cautionary sad tale. Another member told us [about a decade ago] that he had built a sort of log cabin radio workshop within his very extensive garden at considerable expense. It was screened by trees, not visible and fulfilled a long held ambition. Anxious to comply with everything, he told his Local Authority. When a planning notice appeared, his nearest neighbour [half a mile away] complained. He was told he would have to demolish the structure. I said it was perhaps a mistake to try and do the right thing! He sadly agreed I don't know what happened in the end!

[avocollector]

My main shed 2.4 x 4 m is wood framed, clad with metal outer skin, building paper and plywood lined inside. It is on poles 1-2 feet above ground level and the floor is all 4 by 2 inch wood. It keeps most things very dry and I keep any delicate meters in plastic click clack boxes or rolling organisers but a lot of standard equipment is on wooden or metal shelves. The height above ground level is the key to dryness I feel and three of my other sheds have this height underneath which allows the wind to blow through etc.
No problems with mice/insects to date BUT just so you know even this has problems I have to be very careful to keep meter scales out of the window area as the sun bleaches out the printing!! For those who cannot raise the height how about an internal raised floor built of treated wood with a plastic moisture barrier - I'd look also to increase airflow - perhaps some arrangement where the air just under the roof (normally hot) is sucked down and blown through the work area. I don't think it has to be a huge airflow so maybe a solar power unit on the roof and an old car battery would provide enough juice for a small fan to run most of the time.

Now for mains supply I've often wondered about using a step down low voltage transformers back to back - step down at house - cable - and step up at shed. The cable would have to be hefty for the high current but so long as it's under about 30 volts no one would be at any risk. My own place runs off a 5kwatt mains isolation transformer but they are not easy to find.

[avocollector]

I also have a 3.3kw invertor petrol generator for use when the mains goes out in the house. While they are not horribly noisy, you will need a fair amount of land around the house to avoid disturbing the neighbours if you want one for your shed. We have about 3/4 of an acre around our place down the side of a hill and nothing near the boundaries on 3 sides and you can just barely hear it on the one side where people are near - often drowned out by the motorway noise from about 2kms away. I really don't think you could use such a generator in normal suburban housing without much upset.

[nutteronthebus]

I am quite lucky with my sheds as I built the latest one on a decking platform 1 1/2 feet above ground the base is 18mm ply with a dpc and insulation walls are 75mm by 50mm frame covered with thermowrap on the inside and house wrap membrane on the outside of 11mm OSB and 25mm batons that is covered with 21mm cladding . on the inside 50mm insulation on walls and roof the covered in T&G . The windows and doors came from skips. On the whole it is dry and warm even in winter with no damp ( great man cave ) with workshop bench the entire thing is 10m by 4.8m

[HamishBoxer]

It would be a long run but armoured cable underground might be best.If it was possible to do that is.
I have that from my garage to outbuilding.

[WaveyDipole]

Originally Posted by avocollector

I also have a 3.3kw invertor petrol generator for use when the mains goes out in the house. While they are not horribly noisy, you will need a fair amount of land around the house to avoid disturbing the neighbours if you want one for your shed. We have about 3/4 of an acre around our place down the side of a hill and nothing near the boundaries on 3 sides and you can just barely hear it on the one side where people are near - often drowned out by the motorway noise from about 2kms away. I really don't think you could use such a generator in normal suburban housing without much upset.

Well that rules out the generator then! The next door neightbour is likely to complain, but also there are at least 4 elderly peoples bungalows backing on to that garage plot and more following on around the corner. They would almost certainly not appreciate the noise for any length of time and I would not like to upset them. I dare say the relatively cheap ones you can buy from Lidl would not be the quietest either. Since I have no experience using a generator, I appreciate your observations. Since the garage area is surrounded by residential properties on all sides, the noise would reverberate off the properties and would undoubtedly not go down very well.

Originally Posted by HamishBoxer

It would be a long run but armoured cable underground might be best.If it was possible to do that is.
I have that from my garage to outbuilding.

Reaching the garage would mean crossing council land so there is no chance of that being possible. The best I can hope for is a very long extension which I can plug in as and when needed. I do actually have one but have never got around to using it because of the persisting damp problems.

[David Simpson]

My comments in post 50 on overhead cables were purely in relation to WD's aerial view of his property in post 48. His rented Garage is clearly shown to be the furthest away in a row of 4. Ie. - on Council land & accessed via a Council cul-de-sac. Hence covered by a raft of regulatory bodies. The same bodies would regulate on laying an underground SWA Cable.
Obviously, his wee shed alongside the gable end of the house might well benefit from a mains spur from his domestic consumer unit. But, and its a big but, it needs to be installed by a qualified NICEIC type electrician who is authorised to supply an inspection certificate. Who installs what & who is qualified for what - has been extensively banged-on about in many previous threads over the years.
WD, in his profile, does not reveal any electrical or electronics qualifications. So perhaps, domestic electrical installation-wise, folk shouldn't be encouraging the chap to "throw up a cable here or dig in a cable there", so to speak. Otherwise he might get into deep Poo Poo with the Council's Planning &/or Technical Services Departments. Not to mention putting himself, his family & his neighbours at risk.
If there is a friendly Forum guy, with suitable electrical engineering qualifications, living nearby, then why not pop along & give WD some technical advice. Likewise a chap with shed building experience.

Regards, David

[ms660]

Ditch the plastic shed, replace with a timber one, preferably DIY if competent to do so, shiplap's the best timber cladding but if you go feather edge try and get some 125mm stuff and give it a min 20mm lap, only one fixing per tier per stud for timber cladding boards, don't forget some racking boards or diagonals for the walls. I would recommend using pressure treated timber, breather membrane on the outside face of the studs, insulation etc etc...could go on but most of it's elementary.

Power? Getting power to the shed isn't rocket science, unless you want to draw kWs make up an extension cable with a fused plug on one end and a multi outlet on the other, protect where needed, doing that you won't need an "electrician" having said that I'm not an electrician but I managed to export mains from the house to a shed in the garden using armoured cable as a permanent install and it's MCB and RCD protected and Earthed.

Lawrence.

[Radio Wrangler]

Any chance of swapping garages with the one nearest your back fence?

David