A&R Cambridge P77 stylus diamond re tipping.

[Luxman1050]

Hi all
Anybody had done or knows of any reputable companies that can do stylus diamond re tipping. Had a look round but not much info.

Cheers Chris

[Ted Kendall]

Expert Stylus Co. Been in the business since Noah was a lad - and I think they did the original Paratrace tips for P77s, anyway.

[Luxman1050]

Brilliant Ted
Cheers Chris

[lazythread]

About 25 years ago, when I bought new styli for these cartridges from Hi Fi retailers they were supplied in Expert's own stylus boxes.

[Luxman1050]

They appear to be a good stylus worth getting re tipped or re built. From what I've read.

[Jez1234]

I had a P77 when they were a new model and were getting good reviews in the hi fi press and I thought it was generally not bad but not as good as the claims made in the press.
A little over warm and lacking "filigree detail and air" I thought. Personally I found Ortofons' similarly priced (a few quid cheaper in fact) VMS30E MkII to be better (and probably, IMHO of course, the best MM cart around at the time until you got to the TOTR Shure V15 type IV and V and the Grace F7E at much higher price).

Goldring also do re-tips but maybe only for MC's...

[Sergeauckland]

Just to add my tuppence-worth. I've used Expert Stylus on three of my cartridges, admittedly all Moving Coils (EMT-TSD15, AT33ML and Ortofon MC15S) with complete success. I have a Shure V15-VMR for which I bought a JICO stylus as I bought it as a body only, but had it had a stylus, I would have had it retipped.

My one regret in all this is that I had a Sumiko Talisman S cartridge which I scrapped when the stylus fell off, as at the time I didn't know about Expert Stylus.

I still have a Goldring Elite MC that needs retipping, but as I now have more cartridges than turntables, it'll have to wait.

S.

[Luxman1050]

You've got me thinking now. I do have a brand new ortofon VMS20E mkII (Well NOS) not tried it yet.

[Jez1234]

The VMS20 was very good and deserved its reputation but the more expensive and several years later 30 was substantially better (they overlapped for several years but 20 came out maybe 5 years earlier). You could convert the 20 to the 30 by fitting a 30 stylus... not much help in 2023 I know! Both need higher than average capacitive loading and there was a clip on capacitors chip thingy called the CAP210 available as an accessory. The 30 tracked at a higher downforce and was less compliant than the 20.

With the way prices for even relatively humble carts have skyrocketed these days I'd expect a VMS20 in A1 working order to be at least the equal of £150 ish modern MM carts and maybe more. There's a very few carts that have been made continuously for around 30 years plus and which I remember them being about £60 when they came out and are now around £350! Goldring 1042 a prime example.

[Luxman1050]

Well thats a coincidence just spotted a cap210 for sale how about that. Was not aware they needed that.

[Sergeauckland]

The main difference between cartridges in terms of quality is mostly to do with the stylus profile. Although some actually like the sound of a conical stylus like the Denon 103, it's characterised by high distortion at higher frequencies due to tracing distortion. Similarly, the Decca (now London) cartridges have high distortion due to the torsional nature of the Decca suspension which twists the stylus as it rises up the sides of the groove.

Firstly the elliptical stylus helped reduce tracing distortion,but it was the Shibata line contact stylus originally developed to track CD-4 Quadraphonic records that reduced distortion significantly. CD-4 records required the cartridge to output signals up to 45kHz to recover the rear channel information. Later stylus profiles like Shure's MicroRidge and Audio Technica's MicroLine, the various Van Den Hul profiles, Gyger and Expert Stylus's own Paratrace all are different forms of essentially the same thing. They result in significantly lower HF distortion due to the pinch-effect being far lower with the narrower stylus profile across the groove. Their wider contact area also results on lower wear, both stylus and record.

Incidentally, the use of a line contact stylus makes playing 'charity shop' records far better than one would think, as most records were played on a conical stylus and would wear a patch on the groove wall. A Line Contact stylus bridges thatwear gap and play more of the 'unworn' vinyl.

I buy virtually all of my records used, as the music I'm mostly interested in (SQ Quadraphonics) would have mostly been played with a conical stylus, so my line-contact stylii play pretty well considering the age of the LPs.

I agree that cartridge prices have become silly these days, but that's a consequence of much lower volumes, with the exception of dross like Crossley.

S.

[Jez1234]

Some excellent points there Serge but I wouldn't quite go as far as to say the MAIN difference between carts is the stylus profile. In ranges where one can fit styli ranging from a cone on a roundel at the cheap end to a nude fine line at the top end to the same cartridge body, such as both the A&R range and the Ortofon range as it happens, indeed sound quality, tracking and sensitivity to groove wear and noise often get much better as we go up the range but there is also often changes in the suspension and compliance, as in the Ortofons, and sometimes stylus rake angle, which will also have a substantial effect and even then there is often an unmistakable family sound to them from things like body resonances and coil resonance effects.

[Luxman1050]

I totally agree with the prices. They have sky rocketed and where talking about buying used styluses which we have in the majority of cases no idea what there condition is. But it seems a worthwhile exercise in getting the original stylus refurbed as your not loosing too much originality. Whereas after market gear your never really sure what your buying.
Thanks for the technical info guys very interesting stuff. Alot going on in such a small package for sure.

[paulsherwin]

What are typical charges for retipping a stylus?

[Sergeauckland]

Expert Stylus charge about £200 for their Paratrace stylus.

S.

[Luxman1050]

What is a paratrace stylus?

[ajgriff]

I don't see the sense in re-tipping an MM stylus. Might as well move up a level to MC. I'll leave Serge to explain 'paratrace'!

Alan

[Luxman1050]

Only problem with a MC cart is the pre amp stage. I've only one amp whereby you can switch between MM & MC carts. Why's it not worth re tipping MM styluses?

[ajgriff]

Personal opinion only of course but MC cartridges are so much better and I will never go back to MM. For £200 you can buy a decent MC.

Alan

[Sergeauckland]

Originally Posted by Luxman1050

What is a paratrace stylus?

It's Expert's own line-contact profile. Similar to a van del Hul, Gyger, Audio Technica Micro-Line etc.

As to cost, yes one can buy a new cartridge for the £200 or so it costs to retip, but that's a lot less than it costs to replace a cherished cartridge like my TSD15 or Koetsus, Supexes and the like.

It was also a sensible upgrade to the Denon 103, which has a very good generator, but a nail for a stylus. The price of the 103 has now gone so high it's not worth doing, unless one buys a well worn 103.

S.