Sound in sync's - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

murphyv310 · 27th Aug 2011, 11:18 am

I have wondered for some time about sound in sync.
Has this ever been successfully done and was it ever done on 405?

ppppenguin · 27th Aug 2011, 11:33 am

Invented at the BBC in the 1960s and used for distribution of programmes to transmitters. Never broadcast AFAIK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-in-Syncs

Presumably never done on 405. I once designed a SIS stripper for a client. It took a video signal with SIS and restored the standard sync pulses.

Kat Manton · 27th Aug 2011, 12:30 pm

Hi Trevor,

If you (or someone else) have a pile of 'Practical Television' magazines, there's an article on it in the January 1969 issue - BBC's Sound-in-Vision Distribution System by T. John (page 154, 155 and the last bit on page 165.)

I've got it in front of me at the moment, unfortunately I haven't got a working scanner. (I've been meaning to scan it and post it here eventually as it's interesting; maybe someone else can oblige?)

Kat

murphyv310 · 27th Aug 2011, 1:20 pm

Hi Jeffrey & Kat.
Many thanks for the replies, I certainly would like a look at the article in Television. I should be able to get the issue from Bob over here.
I asked as David Boynes is here for the for the weekend and we were talking about a compacted system for 405 line transmission with a reduced bandwidth for vision of 2mhz and a way to obviate the sound carrier.

Dave Moll · 27th Aug 2011, 1:35 pm

Here's my copy:

Dave Moll · 27th Aug 2011, 1:40 pm

Sorry, fig 2 didn't come out very well. Here's anaother try at it:

af024 · 27th Aug 2011, 3:52 pm

Was this how the likes of the Sony PCM-F1 shown here worked perhaps:-

http://www.palsite.com/pcmf1ovi.html

Regards,

Andy

cmjones01 · 27th Aug 2011, 4:13 pm

The PCM-F1 occupied the whole video signal on Betamax tape to store digital audio, but I believe it used a higher sample rate and bit depth than SIS.

af024 · 28th Aug 2011, 10:53 am

Ah gotcha. I always wondered.

Andy

Paul Stenning · 28th Aug 2011, 1:35 pm

Dave, it may be better to put the scans in a ZIP file and upload that. You won't have the forum resizing the images then.

Dave Moll · 28th Aug 2011, 3:30 pm

For the benefit of anyone finding the pages difficult to read, here are the original scans, before forum resizing:

murphyv310 · 28th Aug 2011, 6:22 pm

Hi Dave.
Thanks for the zipped files, perfect thanks. Had a busy weekend with David here but the car went on the blink so we have been busy with that too.
I will study all the info during the week.

brianc · 28th Aug 2011, 6:59 pm

I think you'll find that Pye were the first people to use a form of sound in syncs. It was used in their first 2 camera OB van which, I believe, was produces in the very early 50s - perhaps someone could look in the History of Pye TVT book as it's mentioned in there and my copy's out on loan. It was to enable one channel of RF from the OB to base to be used, rather than 2.

beamcurrent · 29th Aug 2011, 10:57 am

Hi Brian,

Pye did indeed have a sound in syncs system, it was called "videosonic" and was used with the 1947 2 camera demonstration Humber OB van. It sampled the audio at line rate (405) and put a analogue value repersenting the audio level in the sync period, so the channel bandwidth could not have been much more than 4.5Kc/s, OK for the period.

The BBC designed system that was digital and it was manufactured by Pye, in a nice reflection on history. The SIS system was later developed into a stereo one.

Brian S
www.tvcameramuseum.org

27th Aug 2011, 11:18 am	#1
murphyv310 Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK. Posts: 5,388	Sound in sync's I have wondered for some time about sound in sync. Has this ever been successfully done and was it ever done on 405? __________________ Cheers, Trevor. MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member

27th Aug 2011, 11:33 am	#2
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: Sound in sync's Invented at the BBC in the 1960s and used for distribution of programmes to transmitters. Never broadcast AFAIK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound-in-Syncs Presumably never done on 405. I once designed a SIS stripper for a client. It took a video signal with SIS and restored the standard sync pulses.

27th Aug 2011, 12:30 pm	#3
Kat Manton Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,700	Re: Sound in sync's Hi Trevor, If you (or someone else) have a pile of 'Practical Television' magazines, there's an article on it in the January 1969 issue - BBC's Sound-in-Vision Distribution System by T. John (page 154, 155 and the last bit on page 165.) I've got it in front of me at the moment, unfortunately I haven't got a working scanner. (I've been meaning to scan it and post it here eventually as it's interesting; maybe someone else can oblige?) Kat

27th Aug 2011, 1:20 pm	#4
murphyv310 Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK. Posts: 5,388	Re: Sound in sync's Hi Jeffrey & Kat. Many thanks for the replies, I certainly would like a look at the article in Television. I should be able to get the issue from Bob over here. I asked as David Boynes is here for the for the weekend and we were talking about a compacted system for 405 line transmission with a reduced bandwidth for vision of 2mhz and a way to obviate the sound carrier. __________________ Cheers, Trevor. MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member

27th Aug 2011, 1:35 pm	#5
Dave Moll Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK Posts: 6,050	Re: Sound in sync's Here's my copy: Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)

27th Aug 2011, 1:40 pm	#6
Dave Moll Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK Posts: 6,050	Re: Sound in sync's Sorry, fig 2 didn't come out very well. Here's anaother try at it: Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)

27th Aug 2011, 3:52 pm	#7
af024 Octode Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ashby-de-la-Zouch (it's not by the sea) Posts: 1,242	Re: Sound in sync's Was this how the likes of the Sony PCM-F1 shown here worked perhaps:- http://www.palsite.com/pcmf1ovi.html Regards, Andy __________________ Now where on earth did I remove that from?

27th Aug 2011, 4:13 pm	#8
cmjones01 Nonode Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK Posts: 2,606	Re: Sound in sync's The PCM-F1 occupied the whole video signal on Betamax tape to store digital audio, but I believe it used a higher sample rate and bit depth than SIS.

28th Aug 2011, 10:53 am	#9
af024 Octode Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ashby-de-la-Zouch (it's not by the sea) Posts: 1,242	Re: Sound in sync's Ah gotcha. I always wondered. Andy __________________ Now where on earth did I remove that from?

28th Aug 2011, 1:35 pm	#10
Paul Stenning Administrator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cardiff Posts: 8,965	Re: Sound in sync's Dave, it may be better to put the scans in a ZIP file and upload that. You won't have the forum resizing the images then. __________________ Paul Stenning Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster

28th Aug 2011, 6:22 pm	#12
murphyv310 Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK. Posts: 5,388	Re: Sound in sync's Hi Dave. Thanks for the zipped files, perfect thanks. Had a busy weekend with David here but the car went on the blink so we have been busy with that too. I will study all the info during the week. __________________ Cheers, Trevor. MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member

28th Aug 2011, 6:59 pm	#13
brianc Rest in Peace Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Burghfield, Reading, Berkshire, UK, Posts: 1,055	Re: Sound in sync's I think you'll find that Pye were the first people to use a form of sound in syncs. It was used in their first 2 camera OB van which, I believe, was produces in the very early 50s - perhaps someone could look in the History of Pye TVT book as it's mentioned in there and my copy's out on loan. It was to enable one channel of RF from the OB to base to be used, rather than 2.

29th Aug 2011, 10:57 am	#14
beamcurrent Heptode Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Camberley, Surrey, UK. Posts: 787	Re: Sound in sync's Hi Brian, Pye did indeed have a sound in syncs system, it was called "videosonic" and was used with the 1947 2 camera demonstration Humber OB van. It sampled the audio at line rate (405) and put a analogue value repersenting the audio level in the sync period, so the channel bandwidth could not have been much more than 4.5Kc/s, OK for the period. The BBC designed system that was digital and it was manufactured by Pye, in a nice reflection on history. The SIS system was later developed into a stereo one. Brian S www.tvcameramuseum.org Attached Thumbnails