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Old 18th Oct 2020, 1:20 pm   #21
analogadikt
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

If the customer wants to see perfectly steady strobe marks, you can use a solution that has been successfully used with the Garrard 4HF. People have replaced faulty rheostat type pitch control on that one with heavy duty industrial application pots. A similar one can be fitted in series with the motor here.

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Old 18th Oct 2020, 3:11 pm   #22
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

This is absolutely true regarding these BSR decks. Someone mentioned the same thing regarding the old Garrard RC75/80 decks and I've had this when they've just been serviced - the official Garrard manual advice was to increase the tension of the idler spring to slow them down slightly, but unlike the BSR they are provided with more than one spring hooking hole for the purpose.

This problem of BSR decks running too fast has come up before and some may remember several years ago when I was saying that I thought it was normal on these decks, some chap appeared out of nowhere (I think he was a fairly new member at the time) and really had a go at me in a very aggressive and unpleasant manner that this was all a load of nonsense. There was absolutely no pacifying him (I did try, but he was having none of it and just got more obnoxious). In the end Paul Stenning had to step in to shut him down regarding his bad attitude and close the thread. A while after that the same chap had a real go at another member in the same way, and on this occasion Paulsherwin had to step in and tell him something to the effect that he needed to calm his anger down and go and have a cup of tea - unbelievably this fellow is still a member on here, though thankfully doesn't post much anymore!
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 3:23 pm   #23
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I remember reading an owners or service manual in recent times for one of the manufactures stating that the speed will increase from new.

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Old 18th Oct 2020, 4:04 pm   #24
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

The complainant is completely unrealistic of course.
It's ridiculous that he expected the vintage equipment to be a s accurate as modern stuff.
It was designed to do a job(play music)reasonably well to a budget for the times.
Much of the charm of vintage music equipment is in the fact that it's not perfect.
Neither is eg MP3 of course,just different.
I usually try to "head off at the pass"this sort of timewasting customer that buy's vintage gear for all the wrong reasons,and then wants it repaired.
They have probably been watching the rose tinted fairytale "repair shop" on telly,d'oh!!!
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:31 pm   #25
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

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The complainant is completely unrealistic of course.
It's ridiculous that he expected the vintage equipment to be a s accurate as modern stuff.
It was designed to do a job(play music)reasonably well to a budget for the times.
Much of the charm of vintage music equipment is in the fact that it's not perfect.
Neither is eg MP3 of course,just different.
I usually try to "head off at the pass"this sort of timewasting customer that buy's vintage gear for all the wrong reasons,and then wants it repaired.
They have probably been watching the rose tinted fairytale "repair shop" on telly,d'oh!!!
Nick
Oh how true nick.

This takes me back to my late teens, we had a by the standards of the mid 70's decent stereo.BSR MP60, rogers ravensbrook, wharfedale dentons.
After our original euphoria over the improvement over a dansette popular and as i got old enough to listen more carefully and appreciate music I noticed the BSR had a real speed stability issue. I dont have "perfect pitch" very few are that gifted, but neither am I tone deaf and can still hear minute pitch changes "on the fly". The wow and flutter of the deck was really doing my 17 year old nut in so I came to an agree ment with Dad and we went 50/50 on a new pioneer Pl12D and trust me, in 1974 £20 each was nigh on 2 weeks apprentice wages and a big chunk of fathers disposable income so this was not a trivial "upgrade". On getting the deck home and more or less plugging in and settting it up we sat back and were gobsmacked.
This, for me is the nub of it. decks like Ken Ishiwatas PL12D design and the inevitable other japanese engineers excellent products changed vinyl reproduction forever.
Your customer is unrealistic, BSR autochangers are good for what they were, but if you actually want something that makes sense of the fantastically good quality early vinyl then you have to have a proper hi fi deck. This is not audiophile snobbery, merely a statement of fact and respect for quality mass produced engineering.

By the way, the ravensbrook (refurbished) and dentons still work and still make a glorious and enjoyable sound. Way better than the decks they were originally paired with.

Andy.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:37 pm   #26
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

A big thank you to everyone who has responded.

The deck is a variant of the horrible C109, the guy said it worked before, playing at exactly the right speed. When I came to it, it didn't work at all because it was all seized up, so if it was running at the right speed or even slower it was probably due to grease slowing it down.

What annoyed me was that he didn't want to pay me because in his mind, I hadn't repaired it. He did pay me but tried to make me feel very guilty about it, which I'm not.

He simply could not accept that nothing is absolutely perfect!
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:49 pm   #27
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I always remember my MP60 being about half a semitone fast. This was very frustrating when I was trying to work out how to play songs on a keyboard along with the record. Whichever note I played it was never quite right.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:59 pm   #28
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

If it was seized it's been faulty for a while. His memory of it may be what I believe is called a received memory, part real and part distorted by the intervening time. Very common with childhood memories.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 6:10 pm   #29
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

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I always remember my MP60 being about half a semitone fast. This was very frustrating when I was trying to work out how to play songs on a keyboard along with the record. Whichever note I played it was never quite right.
I believe you James, i was never blessed with a true musical ear unlike the female members of my family, but i knew when something wasn't pitch stable and at least I am blessed ,like father, with the gift of being able to appreciate the emotional message in music. Thankfully in our "bubble" I was able to recently enjoy listening to a mono pressing of Ella and Louis in my dads company. The old boy is now 90, all marbles present and although more or less blind is still a game old feller. his observations and comments were precious as he had the privelige of hearing them live.

Bizarrely perhaps, I hanker after a nice working example of the BSR MP60 but for nostalgic reasons. And bung on Who's next or an early Yes LP andbe that teenager again.

Andy
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 6:22 pm   #30
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If it was seized it's been faulty for a while. His memory of it may be what I believe is called a received memory, part real and part distorted by the intervening time. Very common with childhood memories.
Ah yes Bill.

I'd be 13 or 14 when we moved from a dansette popular to the MP60/Ravensbrook/denton setup. all arranged with help from our neighbour who had a posh 401/leak valve amps/and home brew corner cabinets system.
We as a family were gobsmacked with the frequency range and, oh wow, stereo!
Me and my sister just loved how it made our pop and rock discs thunder.
I didnt really appreciate the subtleties of musical performance and reproduction until quite a bit older and thats when the speed issues of the MP60 became an issue for me.
All that said, a good tune out of the kitchen internet/bluetooth speaker whilst cooking or having coffee with the missus can always get the juices flowing. I can always mentally fill in the missing bits.

A.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 7:40 pm   #31
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

My received memory is that "Dansette type" record players always had mains hum, you'd hear it between records then it'd be drowned out by the R&R track. Apparently it's not true though.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 8:00 pm   #32
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My received memory is that "Dansette type" record players always had mains hum, you'd hear it between records then it'd be drowned out by the R&R track. Apparently it's not true though.
In the absence of any other indication, it was the only way you knew it was warmed up and ready to go.

the Dansette popular, you switched it on via the volume control and waited until you heard the hum in the speaker................. likewise if you didnt want to scuff your valuable LP you switched it off and repeated te process for the next record. The stress on the heaters and capacitors must have been immense.

A
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 8:14 pm   #33
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Another vote here for slidertogrid's comment in post 19 re: buildup on pulley step. Had this numerous times. It seems to be worst on those with plastic platters too!

The decks with plastic platters are also probably most prone to running fast, after all the motors and idlers were likely designed with the heavier metal ones in mind, the plastic came later. People seem to notice slow running more than fast, after all.

Another thing you can do is adjust the positioning of the rubber idler on the step. I think the steps on these BSRs are actually slightly tapered. There is a brass screw that raises/lowers it. You don't get much range but it might suffice in these cases.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:14 pm   #34
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

or you just might accept that they are past it.
Accept them as historical treasures.
stuff like the garrard 401 because of the of the expensive way they were engineered will always be serviceable.
BSR autochangers have already outlived their service life by 20 years plus.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:25 pm   #35
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

More like 50 years for many.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:49 pm   #36
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I really don't understand the problem. It plays a bit fast, which will increase the pitch slightly. Big deal. 440Hz is a relatively new 'standard'. There's nothing magical about it. Pitch has varied enormously throughout history and from place to place. It still varies, if you happen to play in historical pitch. There are very few who can tell you the pitch of a record just by listening to it. The only people that can do that are very rare, those who have perfect pitch. In itself perfect pitch is of little use. Relative pitch is much more useful. If you wish to play along to the record on another instrument then that's another matter. Fixed pitched instruments are in trouble. Singers and instruments that can be tuned quickly are fine.

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Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:55 pm   #37
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

It's really just another case of unrealistic expectations, a sort of audiophoolery (q.v!)
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 10:24 pm   #38
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
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Another vote here for slidertogrid's comment in post 19 re: buildup on pulley step. Had this numerous times. It seems to be worst on those with plastic platters too!
Cleaned that and used a bit of emery paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben View Post
The decks with plastic platters are also probably most prone to running fast, after all the motors and idlers were likely designed with the heavier metal ones in mind, the plastic came later. People seem to notice slow running more than fast, after all.

Another thing you can do is adjust the positioning of the rubber idler on the step. I think the steps on these BSRs are actually slightly tapered. There is a brass screw that raises/lowers it. You don't get much range but it might suffice in these cases.
The motor pulleys on these are not tapered and in any case, I tried that and it didn't make any difference.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 11:38 pm   #39
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I have been using a BSR MP60 as my main turntable for about 4 years and agree that it runs slightly fast. Mine has been serviced and works well, so I will assume that it was like this from the factory. I realised that my MP60 was running fast when I listened to a CD copy of Jim Reeves 'Welcome To My World' and thought that it sounded slower than the LP version.

I used the BSR to listen to the LP 'Hooked On Classic 2' the other day and I though it gave a good account of itself! I'll check my spare one too.

Attached are the technical specifications for those who are wondering. Are they any good?

I think that some people have unreasonable expectations for these BSR turntables. They catered for those on a budget and those interested in entry level Hi-Fi. The MP60 fits the bill. It's first owner would have been really happy!

My only complaint is that there is some noise when the platter turns. I'm not sure what it is. My spare is the same.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 12:20 am   #40
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Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Perhaps tellingly, there's no mention of absolute speed tolerance in that data, only limits for its variability....
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