UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc)

Notices

Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 18th Oct 2020, 1:20 pm   #21
analogadikt
Triode
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Mumbai, India.
Posts: 45
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

If the customer wants to see perfectly steady strobe marks, you can use a solution that has been successfully used with the Garrard 4HF. People have replaced faulty rheostat type pitch control on that one with heavy duty industrial application pots. A similar one can be fitted in series with the motor here.

Regards,

Anwesh
__________________
Anwesh
analogadikt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 3:11 pm   #22
Techman
Dekatron
 
Techman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 3,352
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

This is absolutely true regarding these BSR decks. Someone mentioned the same thing regarding the old Garrard RC75/80 decks and I've had this when they've just been serviced - the official Garrard manual advice was to increase the tension of the idler spring to slow them down slightly, but unlike the BSR they are provided with more than one spring hooking hole for the purpose.

This problem of BSR decks running too fast has come up before and some may remember several years ago when I was saying that I thought it was normal on these decks, some chap appeared out of nowhere (I think he was a fairly new member at the time) and really had a go at me in a very aggressive and unpleasant manner that this was all a load of nonsense. There was absolutely no pacifying him (I did try, but he was having none of it and just got more obnoxious). In the end Paul Stenning had to step in to shut him down regarding his bad attitude and close the thread. A while after that the same chap had a real go at another member in the same way, and on this occasion Paulsherwin had to step in and tell him something to the effect that he needed to calm his anger down and go and have a cup of tea - unbelievably this fellow is still a member on here, though thankfully doesn't post much anymore!
Techman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 3:23 pm   #23
ms660
Dekatron
 
ms660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 9,526
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I remember reading an owners or service manual in recent times for one of the manufactures stating that the speed will increase from new.

Lawrence.
ms660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 4:04 pm   #24
Max Ripple
Pentode
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: near Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 119
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

The complainant is completely unrealistic of course.
It's ridiculous that he expected the vintage equipment to be a s accurate as modern stuff.
It was designed to do a job(play music)reasonably well to a budget for the times.
Much of the charm of vintage music equipment is in the fact that it's not perfect.
Neither is eg MP3 of course,just different.
I usually try to "head off at the pass"this sort of timewasting customer that buy's vintage gear for all the wrong reasons,and then wants it repaired.
They have probably been watching the rose tinted fairytale "repair shop" on telly,d'oh!!!
Nick
Max Ripple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:31 pm   #25
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,781
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Ripple View Post
The complainant is completely unrealistic of course.
It's ridiculous that he expected the vintage equipment to be a s accurate as modern stuff.
It was designed to do a job(play music)reasonably well to a budget for the times.
Much of the charm of vintage music equipment is in the fact that it's not perfect.
Neither is eg MP3 of course,just different.
I usually try to "head off at the pass"this sort of timewasting customer that buy's vintage gear for all the wrong reasons,and then wants it repaired.
They have probably been watching the rose tinted fairytale "repair shop" on telly,d'oh!!!
Nick
Oh how true nick.

This takes me back to my late teens, we had a by the standards of the mid 70's decent stereo.BSR MP60, rogers ravensbrook, wharfedale dentons.
After our original euphoria over the improvement over a dansette popular and as i got old enough to listen more carefully and appreciate music I noticed the BSR had a real speed stability issue. I dont have "perfect pitch" very few are that gifted, but neither am I tone deaf and can still hear minute pitch changes "on the fly". The wow and flutter of the deck was really doing my 17 year old nut in so I came to an agree ment with Dad and we went 50/50 on a new pioneer Pl12D and trust me, in 1974 20 each was nigh on 2 weeks apprentice wages and a big chunk of fathers disposable income so this was not a trivial "upgrade". On getting the deck home and more or less plugging in and settting it up we sat back and were gobsmacked.
This, for me is the nub of it. decks like Ken Ishiwatas PL12D design and the inevitable other japanese engineers excellent products changed vinyl reproduction forever.
Your customer is unrealistic, BSR autochangers are good for what they were, but if you actually want something that makes sense of the fantastically good quality early vinyl then you have to have a proper hi fi deck. This is not audiophile snobbery, merely a statement of fact and respect for quality mass produced engineering.

By the way, the ravensbrook (refurbished) and dentons still work and still make a glorious and enjoyable sound. Way better than the decks they were originally paired with.

Andy.
bikerhifinut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:37 pm   #26
Michael Maurice
Moderator
 
Michael Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wembley, Middlesex
Posts: 6,222
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

A big thank you to everyone who has responded.

The deck is a variant of the horrible C109, the guy said it worked before, playing at exactly the right speed. When I came to it, it didn't work at all because it was all seized up, so if it was running at the right speed or even slower it was probably due to grease slowing it down.

What annoyed me was that he didn't want to pay me because in his mind, I hadn't repaired it. He did pay me but tried to make me feel very guilty about it, which I'm not.

He simply could not accept that nothing is absolutely perfect!
__________________
Forum Moderator

http://www.michaelmauricerepairs.co.uk/
Michael Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:49 pm   #27
jamesperrett
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Liss, Hampshire, UK.
Posts: 1,226
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I always remember my MP60 being about half a semitone fast. This was very frustrating when I was trying to work out how to play songs on a keyboard along with the record. Whichever note I played it was never quite right.
jamesperrett is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 5:59 pm   #28
AC/HL
Moderator
 
AC/HL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 9,016
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

If it was seized it's been faulty for a while. His memory of it may be what I believe is called a received memory, part real and part distorted by the intervening time. Very common with childhood memories.
__________________
Bill, BVWS member
AC/HL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 6:10 pm   #29
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,781
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesperrett View Post
I always remember my MP60 being about half a semitone fast. This was very frustrating when I was trying to work out how to play songs on a keyboard along with the record. Whichever note I played it was never quite right.
I believe you James, i was never blessed with a true musical ear unlike the female members of my family, but i knew when something wasn't pitch stable and at least I am blessed ,like father, with the gift of being able to appreciate the emotional message in music. Thankfully in our "bubble" I was able to recently enjoy listening to a mono pressing of Ella and Louis in my dads company. The old boy is now 90, all marbles present and although more or less blind is still a game old feller. his observations and comments were precious as he had the privelige of hearing them live.

Bizarrely perhaps, I hanker after a nice working example of the BSR MP60 but for nostalgic reasons. And bung on Who's next or an early Yes LP andbe that teenager again.

Andy
bikerhifinut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 6:22 pm   #30
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,781
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
If it was seized it's been faulty for a while. His memory of it may be what I believe is called a received memory, part real and part distorted by the intervening time. Very common with childhood memories.
Ah yes Bill.

I'd be 13 or 14 when we moved from a dansette popular to the MP60/Ravensbrook/denton setup. all arranged with help from our neighbour who had a posh 401/leak valve amps/and home brew corner cabinets system.
We as a family were gobsmacked with the frequency range and, oh wow, stereo!
Me and my sister just loved how it made our pop and rock discs thunder.
I didnt really appreciate the subtleties of musical performance and reproduction until quite a bit older and thats when the speed issues of the MP60 became an issue for me.
All that said, a good tune out of the kitchen internet/bluetooth speaker whilst cooking or having coffee with the missus can always get the juices flowing. I can always mentally fill in the missing bits.

A.
bikerhifinut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 7:40 pm   #31
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 17,010
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

My received memory is that "Dansette type" record players always had mains hum, you'd hear it between records then it'd be drowned out by the R&R track. Apparently it's not true though.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Keep the soldering iron hot.
Station X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 8:00 pm   #32
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,781
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
My received memory is that "Dansette type" record players always had mains hum, you'd hear it between records then it'd be drowned out by the R&R track. Apparently it's not true though.
In the absence of any other indication, it was the only way you knew it was warmed up and ready to go.

the Dansette popular, you switched it on via the volume control and waited until you heard the hum in the speaker................. likewise if you didnt want to scuff your valuable LP you switched it off and repeated te process for the next record. The stress on the heaters and capacitors must have been immense.

A
bikerhifinut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 8:14 pm   #33
ben
Dekatron
 
ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, UK
Posts: 6,009
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Another vote here for slidertogrid's comment in post 19 re: buildup on pulley step. Had this numerous times. It seems to be worst on those with plastic platters too!

The decks with plastic platters are also probably most prone to running fast, after all the motors and idlers were likely designed with the heavier metal ones in mind, the plastic came later. People seem to notice slow running more than fast, after all.

Another thing you can do is adjust the positioning of the rubber idler on the step. I think the steps on these BSRs are actually slightly tapered. There is a brass screw that raises/lowers it. You don't get much range but it might suffice in these cases.
__________________
Regards,
Ben.
ben is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:14 pm   #34
bikerhifinut
Octode
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK
Posts: 1,781
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

or you just might accept that they are past it.
Accept them as historical treasures.
stuff like the garrard 401 because of the of the expensive way they were engineered will always be serviceable.
BSR autochangers have already outlived their service life by 20 years plus.
bikerhifinut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:25 pm   #35
Nickthedentist
Dekatron
 
Nickthedentist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 15,079
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

More like 50 years for many.
Nickthedentist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:49 pm   #36
Michael.N.
Pentode
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 163
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I really don't understand the problem. It plays a bit fast, which will increase the pitch slightly. Big deal. 440Hz is a relatively new 'standard'. There's nothing magical about it. Pitch has varied enormously throughout history and from place to place. It still varies, if you happen to play in historical pitch. There are very few who can tell you the pitch of a record just by listening to it. The only people that can do that are very rare, those who have perfect pitch. In itself perfect pitch is of little use. Relative pitch is much more useful. If you wish to play along to the record on another instrument then that's another matter. Fixed pitched instruments are in trouble. Singers and instruments that can be tuned quickly are fine.

Last edited by Michael.N.; 18th Oct 2020 at 9:56 pm.
Michael.N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 9:55 pm   #37
Ted Kendall
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,330
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

It's really just another case of unrealistic expectations, a sort of audiophoolery (q.v!)
Ted Kendall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 10:24 pm   #38
Michael Maurice
Moderator
 
Michael Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wembley, Middlesex
Posts: 6,222
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben View Post
Another vote here for slidertogrid's comment in post 19 re: buildup on pulley step. Had this numerous times. It seems to be worst on those with plastic platters too!
Cleaned that and used a bit of emery paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben View Post
The decks with plastic platters are also probably most prone to running fast, after all the motors and idlers were likely designed with the heavier metal ones in mind, the plastic came later. People seem to notice slow running more than fast, after all.

Another thing you can do is adjust the positioning of the rubber idler on the step. I think the steps on these BSRs are actually slightly tapered. There is a brass screw that raises/lowers it. You don't get much range but it might suffice in these cases.
The motor pulleys on these are not tapered and in any case, I tried that and it didn't make any difference.
__________________
Forum Moderator

http://www.michaelmauricerepairs.co.uk/
Michael Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Oct 2020, 11:38 pm   #39
OldTechFan96
Heptode
 
OldTechFan96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
Posts: 649
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

I have been using a BSR MP60 as my main turntable for about 4 years and agree that it runs slightly fast. Mine has been serviced and works well, so I will assume that it was like this from the factory. I realised that my MP60 was running fast when I listened to a CD copy of Jim Reeves 'Welcome To My World' and thought that it sounded slower than the LP version.

I used the BSR to listen to the LP 'Hooked On Classic 2' the other day and I though it gave a good account of itself! I'll check my spare one too.

Attached are the technical specifications for those who are wondering. Are they any good?

I think that some people have unreasonable expectations for these BSR turntables. They catered for those on a budget and those interested in entry level Hi-Fi. The MP60 fits the bill. It's first owner would have been really happy!

My only complaint is that there is some noise when the platter turns. I'm not sure what it is. My spare is the same.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3274.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	218307  
OldTechFan96 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Oct 2020, 12:20 am   #40
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 14,775
Default Re: Accuracy of BSR turntables.

Perhaps tellingly, there's no mention of absolute speed tolerance in that data, only limits for its variability....
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:21 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2020, Paul Stenning.