High definition: A new view on an old question

[ppppenguin]

This web page: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/m.gratton/...Television.htm

contains the statement:
Television Station ….. the FIRST high-definition television station in the world was at Lille in France and opened in 1950 with 819 lines

An interesting example of revisionist history. By the contemporary definitions, HD in the 1930s might have included the German 180 line system and certainly included the 405 line system. In the 1950s I think that 405 was still regarded as HD though 819 was transmitted and there were experiments up to 1000 lines. By the 1970s the engineers had their sights firmly set somewhere around 1000 lines for real broadcasting. After a few false starts such as MUSE in Japan we finally got widespread broadcast HD, by modern definitions, early in the 21st century.

[Steve_P]

Interesting this. If 819 is the first Hi-Def TV format, then why was it stopped and the French came down to join us at 625. (Bandwidth is the usual reason when you ask this question!)

I could go on about Revisionist History being used again to detract the British and advance the European Super State, etc but I think I've been there more than once!

The thing is, it's all to do with Definitions. When 405 first came on the air, it was seen as High Definition Television. Which, when well set up, it still is! Then 625 came in 1963, which was good and bad in varying degrees. Britain did as we know experiment with Colour on 405, and did show that it could have been done.

819 Lines was higher definition, but it seemed to have gone the same way as 405, despite that. And in the 1970s, Hi Definition was over 1000 lines.

Now here's an interesting one : 819 Lines v Digital. Which would have the edge?

Cheers,

Steve P

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by Steve_P

Now here's an interesting one : 819 Lines v Digital. Which would have the edge?

Not a relevant question. 819 was always analogue but could have been digitised. HD as we do it today is fundamentally digital though in practice it always is except for the origination and display.

For the proper comparison, 819 had a little under 800 active lines so it's directly comparable with current 720 systems. Except that current 720 systems are progressive scan and hence lack nasty interlace artifacts. Hence 819, even with modern equipment which can fully utilise its capability, would be inferior to 720p.

Obviously you can muck up any system at any stage by poor cameras, poor image processing, overcompression and poor displays.

And 819 was never broadcast in colour. Were there any colour experiments comparable to the UK 405 NTSC ones?

[Steve_P]

Yes, there were. There were experiments with 819 Line SECAM. Nothing much about them seems to have survived though.

I don't know much about 819 Line TV though, which is probably why I asked a Not Relevant Question.

Cheers,

Steve P

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I have played about with an 819 line set, and I must admit I wasn't too impressed. I used the RT Russell test card genny and an expensive Philips digital pattern generator which accepts external inputs and will out on any RF standard, although the line structure is hardly visible (17") the horizontal resolution is poor giving the picture a very soft appearance.
625 when I first saw it was grainy with a lack of punch and again I wasn't all that impressed.
I still demonstrate my Murphy V310 which is "Spot on" and is far better than any flat panel set you could get your hands on.
No matter what you do now we still have that A to D & D to A senario.
Perhaps todays HD would be better totally analogue as would be 625 considering all the advances in cameras.
Trevor

[Hybrid tellies]

I think the 819 line system was let down by the technology of it's day. Back in the early 1970's we use to have regular French visitors to our Cornish village and they would all comment on how good our 405 line pictures looked compared with their 819 line pictures. They would comment on how much brighter and sharper our pictures would look against their duller flatter pictures back home.
When 625 started I thought the pictures on some of the early single standard colour sets looked brilliant far better than on most of the dual standard mono sets. It was not until I saw 625 line mono pictures on the then new single standard sets such as the ITT/KB VC200 and the Pye 169 chassis that I was able to appreciat how much better the 625 line pictures looked compared with the old 405 line system, and fully appreciate why the new 625 line system was being descibed, by many, as high definition. So good are the analogue pictures (especially when viewed on a good quality crt tv) that they put even HD pictures to shame. Perhaps this is another reason why they want to shut analogue tv down!

[jim_beacon]

For an idea of how 819 could look, check Kat's pictures, here:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...light=819+line

Jim.

[DoctorWho]

HD was, according to the BBC, 240 or more lines.